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Barrel swapped on this model 94 carbine?
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January 23, 2023 - 12:28 am
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I shouldn’t get into this but it’s not a first for him or a couple of well known others.  He and another well known purveyor of “fine Winchester arms” have a fine list of auction guns that are dressed up, marked up, talked up and thrown on various web site gun shops with inflated prices in hopes of a sale. I know I will be chastised but I have done my home work on this, especially with 1886’s. Both of these fine gentleman are regular customers of a particular auction house. Tracked the guns myself. No disrespect.

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January 23, 2023 - 1:19 am
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RickC said
Not what I would expect from such a noted & established Winchester purveyor. 

  

Exactly what I would expect from such a noted & established Winchester purveyor.

And they’re are some, or rather many, by comparison with whom Leroy qualifies as Honest Abe.  “Dads Old Guns”?

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January 23, 2023 - 6:02 pm
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oldcrankyyankee said
I shouldn’t get into this but it’s not a first for him or a couple of well known others.  He and another well known purveyor of “fine Winchester arms” have a fine list of auction guns that are dressed up, marked up, talked up and thrown on various web site gun shops with inflated prices in hopes of a sale. I know I will be chastised but I have done my home work on this, especially with 1886’s. Both of these fine gentleman are regular customers of a particular auction house. Tracked the guns myself. No disrespect.

  

Almost all gun dealers get stuff in their inventory.   All the stuff has to get sold.  I doubt Leroy does any of the descriptions.   If you want to get burned keep dealing with online sellers.

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January 23, 2023 - 6:24 pm
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Chuck said

oldcrankyyankee said

I shouldn’t get into this but it’s not a first for him or a couple of well known others.  He and another well known purveyor of “fine Winchester arms” have a fine list of auction guns that are dressed up, marked up, talked up and thrown on various web site gun shops with inflated prices in hopes of a sale. I know I will be chastised but I have done my home work on this, especially with 1886’s. Both of these fine gentleman are regular customers of a particular auction house. Tracked the guns myself. No disrespect.

  

Almost all gun dealers get stuff in their inventory.   All the stuff has to get sold.  I doubt Leroy does any of the descriptions.   If you want to get burned keep dealing with online sellers.

  

I would have to agree he probably doesn’t do the descriptions but it’s his name on every firearm, correct… or not. He might not care and has heard it all. I’m small potatoes compared and for the few guns that I sell now & then usually to upgrade, I certainly don’t want my name associated to these types of uncommon or questionable configurations! Word travels fast in the collector world.

Also agree with getting burned by online purchases. Buyer beware!

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January 23, 2023 - 6:37 pm
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Rick, I understand what you are saying but I don’t have the time to waste listing all of the gun dealers I am aware of that get into the same situation all the time.  Some are just worse than others.

I’ve sad this so many times on here. “Don’t buy guns that you have not actually picked up and looked at yourself”.  If so you will eventually get burned and maybe even by one of the more supposedly honest dealers.  Inventory does have to get sold.

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January 23, 2023 - 6:49 pm
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RickC said I would have to agree he probably doesn’t do the descriptions but it’s his name on every firearm, correct… or not.

Absolutely, & if a lawsuit ever resulted because a customer found out he’d been burned, it won’t be the flunky who wrote the description who has to face the judge.  Of course I’m speaking hypothetically, because if such a dispute arose, the customer’s money would be “cheerfully” refunded.  But why doesn’t Leroy have the time to write, or at least dictate, his own descriptions?  Is he really moving that many $10 G+ guns through his inventory?

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January 23, 2023 - 7:04 pm
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Chuck said
Rick, I understand what you are saying but I don’t have the time to waste listing all of the gun dealers I am aware of that get into the same situation all the time.  Some are just worse than others.

I’ve sad this so many times on here. “Don’t buy guns that you have not actually picked up and looked at yourself”.  If so you will eventually get burned and maybe even by one of the more supposedly honest dealers.  Inventory does have to get sold.

  

Sure…at a price that reflects its true value.  I wouldn’t be offended in the least by owning the “parts gun” we’re talking about, if I had bought it at a “parts gun” price. 

And how do the dealers you refer to “get into the same situation all the time”?  Are they buying such guns sight unseen?  Doesn’t “Don’t buy guns that you have not actually picked up and looked at yourself” apply to them as well?  Inventory doesn’t have to be sold if it’s not bought in the first place.

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January 23, 2023 - 7:14 pm
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I’ve seen big name collectors that had impeccable guns but when they got old they couldn’t see as good and guns would show up in their inventory with issues.

Bob

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January 23, 2023 - 7:26 pm
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Clarence, it doesn’t matter how much time he has or how many guns he has sold over the last 40+ years.  He has employees to handle the day to day stuff.  His job is to buy guns and collect the money.   Major auction houses have mailing lists that are in the 10’s of thousands.  Just to put out a color catalog it can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars when all costs are added up. The owner or owners don’t spend their time doing descriptions.  Sit down and calculate how many guns RIA must deal with on a yearly basis that come from all around the world. I have a couple friends that do descriptions for more than one auction house.  Disputes go on all of the time but in the long run the house comes out ahead.  We only hear of the “major” lawsuits.

I know a guy that got burned for $250,000 in phony baseball memorabilia.  I am not sure if he got any of his money back but the seller went to prison.  Where there is money to be made you know what may happen.

It’s one thing to help a fellow WACA collector when assessing a possible purchase but some here spend a lot of time trying to find bad guns just to stir the pot.

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January 23, 2023 - 7:27 pm
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Hello all,

Let me dispel an assumption that has surfaced in this discussion.  I have been to Leroy’s shop on two occasions when he allowed me to catalog his inventory of 1892’s for my research.  In both of those visits I did get to observe some of the day to day work that goes on.  First off his “shop” is the large basement of his house.  Nothing fancy by any stretch of the imagination.  There were parts and partially assembled rifles on benches.  And several time I listened as Leroy dictated his descriptions into a tape recorder to then be typed up by someone else.  He absolutely does the descriptions.  

Michael

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January 23, 2023 - 7:46 pm
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Michael, I have never been to his house but I have met employees over the years.  I can not disagree with what you saw.  

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January 23, 2023 - 8:37 pm
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I’m not the author of this thread but I believe it’s good discussion. Big sellers are open to critique, especially if the gun has a questionable configuration or uncommon features not dated correctly. It’s part of the selling territory and I’m sure those sellers are  used to it. 

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January 23, 2023 - 9:24 pm
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Hi All,

Not looking to stir the pot, but just looking to educate myself on an oddity.  I’ve taken advise from the experts on this forum to post pictures or links with my questions regarding a gun that I might be interested in purchasing before “pulling the trigger.”  That’s all…

Thanks,

Don

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January 23, 2023 - 9:57 pm
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deerhunter said

Not looking to stir the pot, but just looking to educate myself on an oddity.  I’ve taken advise from the experts on this forum to post pictures or links with my questions regarding a gun that I might be interested in purchasing before “pulling the trigger.”  That’s all…

  

Deceitful gun selling by big-name dealers who ought to know better is a pot that ought to be stirred, the more often & vigorously, the better.  I have no sympathy to spare for cheats.

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January 24, 2023 - 1:22 am
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deerhunter said
Hi All,

Not looking to stir the pot, but just looking to educate myself on an oddity.  I’ve taken advise from the experts on this forum to post pictures or links with my questions regarding a gun that I might be interested in purchasing before “pulling the trigger.”  That’s all…

Thanks,

Don

  

Don – 

Given you were giving some thought to this rifle, I suspect the comments on this thread have been helpful.  This is great example of how useful this forum can be.  There are large dollars involved with this rifle.  Were you to buy this rifle and decide to sell it later, it’s good to know what the opinion of knowledgeable collectors (potential future buyers) would be.  Personally, I find this piece  appealing. I would love to carry it in the woods, shoot it and admire it.  However, as Rick said, I’d have to be able to purchase it for a price that reflects its flaws.  And that is WAY less than his asking price.

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January 24, 2023 - 2:12 am
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 When you buy a Winchester that can not be lettered you do not know what it was when new. When you buy a Winchester that letters you still have to decide if it’s original. Parts swapping and up grading could have happen anytime since the gun was new. If you aren’t sure the gun is right walk away.  A rare Winchester is a totally original Winchester.

 I don’t think you can depend on the dealer to disclose flaws. I know you can’t trust the ordinary seller to disclose flaws. Buying a gun without holding it in your hand is a bad habit. T/R

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January 24, 2023 - 2:23 am
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steve004 said

deerhunter said

Hi All,

Not looking to stir the pot, but just looking to educate myself on an oddity.  I’ve taken advise from the experts on this forum to post pictures or links with my questions regarding a gun that I might be interested in purchasing before “pulling the trigger.”  That’s all…

Thanks,

Don

  

Don – 

Given you were giving some thought to this rifle, I suspect the comments on this thread have been helpful.  This is great example of how useful this forum can be.  There are large dollars involved with this rifle.  Were you to buy this rifle and decide to sell it later, it’s good to know what the opinion of knowledgeable collectors (potential future buyers) would be.  Personally, I find this piece  appealing. I would love to carry it in the woods, shoot it and admire it.  However, as Rick said, I’d have to be able to purchase it for a price that reflects its flaws.  And that is WAY less than his asking price.

  

Hi Steve,

Your post is spot on.  I really like the looks of the pistol grip carbines and the 25-35 makes it even more appealing to me. However, there are way too many “what ifs” associated with it for that kind of money.  If it were a third of the asking price, I might consider it just for the cool factor, while knowing up-front that it may or may not be in its original configuration.

Thanks everyone for their 2 cents,

Don

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January 24, 2023 - 3:31 am
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deerhunter said

If it were a third of the asking price, I might consider it just for the cool factor, while knowing up-front that it may or may not be in its original configuration.

Based on the points made by keener observers that myself, I think “may” is no longer a viable possibility. 

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