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August 11, 2015
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All,
As I gain more and more knowledge of these beautiful mechanical contraptions, I have more and more questions. I am sure for most this is all a repeat and I hate to ask questions of mundane topics, but I started to try and take most of my guns apart to check on various issues, clean up a bit, maybe oil in places where the sun hasn’t shined in awhile, etc.
Since I bought an 1873 with a cut down barrel and didn’t even have a clue about it, I decided to look at the barrels closer if possible. I took apart a couple of guns the other day and noticed various markings etc on them and wanted to see if there was any information on factory marks on the barrel underneath the forearm.
I took down and 1894 that was clearly reblued but am wondering about the barrel authenticity. Is there a mark on the barrel underside on early production guns that identifies as factory installed or otherwise. Also, is there a type of rework in the past where the gunsmith was either certified or authorized to perform work on a gun?
I find it interesting to try and understand the full history of the gun and if this can help me better understand what trials and tribulations a gun may have gone thru having been around for over 100 years.
I tried doing a search on the forum about barrel proof marks but apparently I need more education to do a search where I don’t get a bunch of hits on every post that has barrel in it.
Thanks in advance for any light you shed on this topic.
Regards,
While I’m far from being an expert, here are some suggestions:
For an overview of your inquiry you might start here: http://www.nramuseum.com/gun-info-research/fake!.aspx
Madis’ “big book” The Winchester Book is a good source of information. Any of the Pirkle books on specific Wnchester models can be very helpful as well as Campbell’s books on the 1885. Several of the other Winchester related forums can provide valuable information.
And then there are experts with encyclopedic knowledge like Bert Hartman right here on this forum who is generous in sharing his knowledge.
I’m sure many of the other members here can add infinitely to this list.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Packer,
Here is the link to the proof marks thread. Proof marks began in 1905. Proof marks are stamped on the top of the barrel. Marks on the underside are going to be inspection marks or possibly a year code on 94’s. 73’s never had a year code.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
August 11, 2015
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Bob,
Thanks for the link. Really helpful.
Of course, the answer to one question always causes another question. I have an 1894 that I perceive to be reblued although very professionally. In fact, I believe it may be a new barrel. It is a weird gun all around as it had an ill fitted forearm and an old stock that looks like one from an old 1873 carbine with the shotgun butt plate that really does not fit the butt plate very well. In addition, the receiver has a stamp on the left side, W-37, perpendicular to the barrel plane toward the barrel.
Anyway, I bought it because it was cheap and had lots of stuff wrong with it but the condition of the barrel and receiver interested me.
The underside of the barrel is stamped as follows from the receiver to the muzzle end:
3 . 32-40 1 VP * 94
The serial no. on the receiver is 777499 which says it was made in 1915. The top of the receiver has an oval stamped on it but no letters are discernable inside the oval. The barrel top has no proof mark at all.
Based on the proof mark thread, an 1894 gun made in 1915 should have the WP proof on both the receiver and barrel, so have to assume this is a replacement barrel. Just wondering about the other marks on the underside and whether those are fakes or come from the factory. Also curious about the W-37 mark on the left side of the receiver. Read somewhere that a W was put on guns that were loaned out to experts that did sharpshooting exhibitions. Any truth to this?
My apologies for no pictures but am convinced that you can not post pictures from a Windows 10 machine. Have tried everything to get them to post with no avail. Can send to anyone’s private email if interested.
Thanks and regards,
Underbarrel stamping marks taken from Campbell’s “The Winchester Single Shot”.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Packer,
You can send me the photos and I will post them. Send photos of all the markings, of the whole gun and butt stock that way we can tell what era the barrel was made and figure out your butt plate. I assume when you said it didn’t have a barrel proof that the receiver did? If that is the case the barrel was swapped with a older barrel.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
August 11, 2015
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Bob,
Am attaching photos as I believe I figured that issue out.
Here is the 1894 Rifle, SN 777499, with the odd issues previously discussed.
Regards
August 11, 2015
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ok,
So that didn’t work. Will work on it some more and send to you via email.
Regards
Here are the pictures. Your probably getting a http error while uploading. I got the same while trying to load the pictures you sent. The picture size has to be less than 500 k even thou it says bigger. If you get the error just resize them. Someday they will get it fixed.
The barrel is a early barrel address (150,000 or before) without the proof mark so it was put on sometime after manufacture and not by Winchester. The carbine butt plate was probable on the stock that was put on the gun but you can look for assemble numbers on the left side of the lower tang and on the wood. I would say that there is a small chance its numbered and matches. Sometimes they put assemble numbers to match the stock and butt plate to the gun but most of the time they would be on deluxe grade guns.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I was just reading on an online lever action site that the numbers on the side of the receiver may be from a prison. The 94’s I have seen with receivers so marked have all been carbines which perhaps yours was at one time.
August 11, 2015
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Thanks for the input. Don’t know much about all the markings and typically just buy what I think looks good. Am starting to gain an appreciation for higher quality but that probably only comes with experience and time with the beat up guns and goofy ones that either were purposely altered or just plain repaired as best possible.
I also have a hard time passing up on a so called “frank”chester gun at a cheap price. They provide an opportunity to learn more about the gun and I don’t feel so concerned about taking them apart and perhaps putting one more ding in them.
I joined WACA to learn more and have so far accomplished my goals and hope to keep on learning. However, I tend to have a weak spot for ugly guns with great bodies if you know what I mean!
Will see if I can find out more about the prison guns if time permits.
Regards
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