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http://www.gunbroker.com/item/677850351
It appears many people believe (or at least claim to believe) that Winchester rebored rifle barrels if you sent your rifle back. Winchester even recorded it in the factory ledger (always being careful to never state this is what they actually did) 😉
I don’t believe Winchester did this but I am always open to new information. Does anyone here have reason to believe they did do it? If the seller’s ad is to be believed, apparently people with more experience with Winchesters than me, believe it is so.
This is a nice looking Winchester but a lot of money for a shooter (again, just my opinion).
No expert here on this subject, but I’m with you, Steve. Now and then we are presented with an offer and asked to take it on faith that the factory records were not correct on this model, or that some expert half a century after the DOM can verify that the factory records omitted a detail or, like in this case, refer to another gun seller’s expert opinion as a testimonial to the current offering’s veracity. If I’m going to drop some serious coin on an antique, I want one that is unquestionably original, not one with an “asterisk” on it’s record. Just my own personal prejudice and, as the saying goes, everyone has one.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
On the half-dozen factory rebored barrels that I have seen, each one of them was marked “REBORE”, the order number associated with the R&R entry, and “J.P.P.”
I have not ever seen a verified factory rebore marked with “A.G.E.”
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
On the half-dozen factory rebored barrels that I have seen, each one of them was marked “REBORE”, the order number associated with the R&R entry, and “J.P.P.”I have not ever seen a verified factory rebore marked with “A.G.E.”
Bert
Thanks for re-stating that, Bert. I had heard or seen that some time ago but couldn’t remember the details – just knew that the above listing didn’t match what I’d previously seen.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
November 7, 2015
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Problem I have with “rebores” is the probability that in most cases a simple barrel swap would be done instead of a rebore.
TXGunNut said
Problem I have with “rebores” is the probability that in most cases a simple barrel swap would be done instead of a rebore.
Mike,
On a hand fitted and assembled rifle (like all of those old Winchesters were), there is no such thing as a “simple barrel swap”.
Frankly, there could be multiple “fit” issues arise as the result of a new barrel being installed. Due to small variances in tolerances, the forend cap tenon on the new barrel might not line up with nose cap and/or the original stock. More than likely a new forend stock would need to be fitted to the new barrel, and possibly a new magazine tube might have needed to be fitted to the barrel as well. On a Fancy grade rifle, reboring the existing barrel and not needing to refit anything or make a new forend stock would be the smart move.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Is there any record of Winchester ever putting a sleeve or liner in an 1885 highwall?
Old-Win said
Is there any record of Winchester ever putting a sleeve or liner in an 1885 highwall?
None that I am aware of.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Wow, wasn’t aware of the amount of hand-fitting involved. I’ve been wondering how they got that tenon fit and the magazine tube to work with all the variables. I suspect the ralationship between materials and labor costs have changed as well.
TXGunNut said
Wow, wasn’t aware of the amount of hand-fitting involved. I’ve been wondering how they got that tenon fit and the magazine tube to work with all the variables. I suspect the ralationship between materials and labor costs have changed as well.
That is probably why the workers inside the plant were “contract workers”, what we would today consider independent contractors.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Old-Win said
Is there any record of Winchester ever putting a sleeve or liner in an 1885 highwall?
I think liners and sleeves are a lot more modern practice. Why would the factory do such a thing? If a barrel had such an issue that it needed a sleeve, why wouldn’t Winchester just grab and fit a new barrel from the bin on the factory floor. And even if they didn’t have said caliber, why wouldn’t walk a few more feet over to the barrel stock and turn, ream, mark, and blue a brand new barrel.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Bert H. said
Mike,
On a hand fitted and assembled rifle (like all of those old Winchesters were), there is no such thing as a “simple barrel swap”.
Frankly, there could be multiple “fit” issues arise as the result of a new barrel being installed. Due to small variances in tolerances, the forend cap tenon on the new barrel might not line up with nose cap and/or the original stock. More than likely a new forend stock would need to be fitted to the new barrel, and possibly a new magazine tube might have needed to be fitted to the barrel as well. On a Fancy grade rifle, reboring the existing barrel and not needing to refit anything or make a new forend stock would be the smart move.
Bert
I had this experience when i was putting together a Model 73 “parts” gun. When i went to assemble the barrel to the receiver it would not line up correctly and was too tight. I had to hand file the back end of the barrel so that it would turn that last few thousandths…..one slide of the file on each barrel flat at a time….Took about an hour of filing and fitting the barrel to the receiver..
Wincacher saidThat is probably why the workers inside the plant were “contract workers”, what we would today consider independent contractors.
Usually paid by the piece, not the hour.
No.
The rifle was built for a 40-65 W.C.F. cartridge that has a casing length of 2.105″ and a loaded length averaging 2.470″, depending on the bullet weight. After re-boring, the new cartridge is a 45-90 W.C.F. which has a cartridge length 2.400″ and a loaded length of 2.90″, depending on the projectile weight. Unlike a single shot rifle, where one would just manually insert the new wider and longer cartridge into the chamber, on this rifle the cartridge guide and elevator would have to have been replaced for smooth cycling of the larger 45-90 cartridge. Without having the rifle in my hands and cycling a few rounds, I have no way of knowing if the new configuration works as it would had 45-90 been it’s original caliber.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Online
I have always been under the opinion the receiver and interior parts are the same on all 86’s from 38-56 to 45-90. 86’s in 50 cal have nine distinct changes to the receiver, magazine, and internal parts to handle the larger diameter of the shell. I have personally changed broken cartridge guides between calibers and never noticed a difference, except 50’s. T/R
November 7, 2015
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I like the rifle but too many “if’s” and “but’s” for the price range. Merz’s assessment helps a bit but I’ve got all the “if” guns I want. We can speculate and postulate all we want but at the end of the day IMHO the letter doesn’t match the gun and for that price it should, at least for some discriminating collectors. I’m probably not the only one here who has a rifle or two that we wish matched the letter and it’s easy to come up with an explanation with a positive spin but bottom line, it doesn’t matter to some folks.
TXGunNut said
I’m probably not the only one here who has a rifle or two that we wish matched the letter and it’s easy to come up with an explanation with a positive spin but bottom line, it doesn’t matter to some folks.
Bullseye!
It seems like in most things in life we “screen out” objections (buying a car: wrong color, poor mileage, small engine, short warranty period, too costly, etc.) but when it comes to old Winchesters we “screen in” (factory documentation is incorrect, one owner gun for 100 years, this gun is the one that is the exception to the rule, my uncle says it’s correct and he knows, etc.).
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
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