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Bert, are you going to anneal the brass?
If you can’t convince them, confuse them
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Bert H. said
Chuck said
I agree with Clarence.
Crimping was very popular in the 19th Century. Not so much in the 21st Century. Much better ways to get the proper neck tension.
This isn’t my first rodeo, and I know perfectly well what proper neck tension is… and the cartridges in question definitely do not have any neck tension what-so-ever. Feeding them from the magazine to the chamber is what caused the bullet to get pushed too deeply into the case mouth. I was able to pull the bullet out of the case with just my forefinger & thumb. The load the previous owner used was 12.7 grains of IMR 4227 (which is a full case of powder). I intend to pull them all apart and load them with 13.0 – 13.5 grains of Lil’Gun (3,000 fps and best accuracy).
Not my point Bert. I was talking about the ancient method of crimping. Try this. Size your case neck, measure the OD, seat a bullet, measure the neck OD. Difference is neck tension. Modern expanders are the same diameter for about an inch so the entire length of the case that is in contact with the bullet is properly sized.
Most of, if not all, of our Winchester ammo does not need to be crimped. With the correct expander for your specific bullet you can grasp the entire length of the bullet and it will stay where you seat it. Most have never tried different expanders to find how much tension, measured in .001″ of an inch, that is actually needed. Not only will it stay put but your groups will be better with a consistent tension the entire length of the bullet. The one obstacle for us is finding the larger caliber expanders. So when a standard mandrel is not available I use pin gauges. Once I figure out which one I need I bevel one end so it starts in easily. I have a modified universal expander mandrel holder. I do not crimp any more for any of my lever guns.
Tedk said
Bert, are you going to anneal the brass?
I typically do not try annealing 22 Hornet brass. It is very thin to start with, and it is easily replaced by fire forming brand new 22 Hornet ammo in the K-hornet chamber.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Chuck said
Bert H. said
Chuck said
I agree with Clarence.
Crimping was very popular in the 19th Century. Not so much in the 21st Century. Much better ways to get the proper neck tension.
This isn’t my first rodeo, and I know perfectly well what proper neck tension is… and the cartridges in question definitely do not have any neck tension what-so-ever. Feeding them from the magazine to the chamber is what caused the bullet to get pushed too deeply into the case mouth. I was able to pull the bullet out of the case with just my forefinger & thumb. The load the previous owner used was 12.7 grains of IMR 4227 (which is a full case of powder). I intend to pull them all apart and load them with 13.0 – 13.5 grains of Lil’Gun (3,000 fps and best accuracy).
Not my point Bert. I was talking about the ancient method of crimping. Try this. Size your case neck, measure the OD, seat a bullet, measure the neck OD. Difference is neck tension. Modern expanders are the same diameter for about an inch so the entire length of the case that is in contact with the bullet is properly sized.
Most of, if not all, of our Winchester ammo does not need to be crimped. With the correct expander for your specific bullet you can grasp the entire length of the bullet and it will stay where you seat it. Most have never tried different expanders to find how much tension, measured in .001″ of an inch, that is actually needed. Not only will it stay put but your groups will be better with a consistent tension the entire length of the bullet. The one obstacle for us is finding the larger caliber expanders. So when a standard mandrel is not available I use pin gauges. Once I figure out which one I need I bevel one end so it starts in easily. I have a modified universal expander mandrel holder. I do not crimp any more for any of my lever guns.
Chuck,
You missed my point… the cartridges that came with the rifle are decades old reloads, and they were not properly sized (zero neck tension). I know perfectly well how to correctly neck size 22 Hornet cartridges for a snug tension bullet fit… I do it all the time for my Single Shot rifle in 22 K-Hornet. It is my intent to pull them apart, resize, and reload, but I fist need to have the custom reloading dies that were made by Lyle Kilbourn for this rifle.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert I fully understood what you said about your bullets. Again, my statement was about crimping not the fact that the previous person probably didn’t re size the necks. But you did mention crimping in one of your previous post.
“There were (90) loaded rounds in the wooden boxes, but approximately half of them were not properly crimped and the bullets are loose in the neck.’ Bert H. said
Bert H. said
Chuck said
A little off the subject but, I am not a Model 70 collector but have been thinking of buying a copy of Roger’s book. Would I be OK with the paper back copy for reference?
Sure, but I don’t know if I have ever seen a paperback copy of it anywhere?
November 7, 2015
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Bummer, it would have been pretty cool if loads for your other K Hornet could work in your Model 70. Other than a handful of 30-06’s I’ve never been that lucky. I suppose that’s too much to hope for with a wildcat. How many versions of the K Hornet are documented?
Mike
TXGunNut said
Bummer, it would have been pretty cool if loads for your other K Hornet could work in your Model 70. Other than a handful of 30-06’s I’ve never been that lucky. I suppose that’s too much to hope for with a wildcat. How many versions of the K Hornet are documented?
Mike
Mike,
There are at least a half-dozen different variants of the K-Hornet. The shoulder angle varies from 34-degrees to 45-degrees, and the neck length also varies somewhat. That is the primary difference between the my other K-Hornet rifle and this Model 70. My Single Shot rifle in K-Hornet is .125 shorter to the shoulder with a correspondingly .125″ longer neck (made for longer/heavier bullets). The Model 70 K-Hornet case has a very short neck and the shoulder is pushed farther forward. It appears to have been made for the 40-grain pills (or lighter). I am thinking about loading it with some 35-grain V-max bullets and a case full of Lil’Gun powder.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Bert-
Sounds like you’re going to try to take advantage of the additional case capacity of the M70 case. How long is the barrel on your SS?
Mike
TXGunNut said
Bert-Sounds like you’re going to try to take advantage of the additional case capacity of the M70 case. How long is the barrel on your SS?
Mike
Absolutely I am taking advantage of the extra case capacity… that is the entire premise behind the creation & development of the K-Hornet.
The barrel on my SS K-Hornet is 28-inches long, and with a case full of slightly slower burning powder it is the cats meow 
Loaded with 13.5 grains of Lil’Gun and a 35-grain bullet, it hits 3300 fps on the chrono.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Bert-
Sounds like an exciting project, hope you’ll keep us posted. As you may recall the 22 Hornet is Graham’s nemesis, maybe he would have better luck with the K Hornet.
Just consulted a few loading manuals, most ignore the K Hornet. Maybe they’re too new.
Mike
Bert H. said
TXGunNut said
Bummer, it would have been pretty cool if loads for your other K Hornet could work in your Model 70. Other than a handful of 30-06’s I’ve never been that lucky. I suppose that’s too much to hope for with a wildcat. How many versions of the K Hornet are documented?
Mike
Mike,
There are at least a half-dozen different variants of the K-Hornet. The shoulder angle varies from 34-degrees to 45-degrees, and the neck length also varies somewhat. That is the primary difference between the my other K-Hornet rifle and this Model 70. My Single Shot rifle in K-Hornet is .125 shorter to the shoulder with a correspondingly .125″ longer neck (made for longer/heavier bullets). The Model 70 K-Hornet case has a very short neck and the shoulder is pushed farther forward. It appears to have been made for the 40-grain pills (or lighter). I am thinking about loading it with some 35-grain V-max bullets and a case full of Lil’Gun powder.
Bert
An improper shoulder angle will be an issue when full length re sizing if you don’t have the correct dies. It is not a problem when shooting if you fire form the brass and can get away with just neck sizing. Properly fire formed brass will be blown out to match the inside of the chamber. Take a fired case and if it goes right back into the chamber just neck size by not bringing the f/l die down so far. The neck length is not a problem. Seat your bullet into the case at least 1-1/2 to 2 bullet diameters. Your measurement from the base of the case to bullet ogive when seating the bullets may or not be the best for the jump to the lands. I have this same neck length problem with the Lee Navy and I don’t have dies. I just resize the neck and fire again.
Chuck said
Bert H. said
TXGunNut said
Bummer, it would have been pretty cool if loads for your other K Hornet could work in your Model 70. Other than a handful of 30-06’s I’ve never been that lucky. I suppose that’s too much to hope for with a wildcat. How many versions of the K Hornet are documented?
Mike
Mike,
There are at least a half-dozen different variants of the K-Hornet. The shoulder angle varies from 34-degrees to 45-degrees, and the neck length also varies somewhat. That is the primary difference between the my other K-Hornet rifle and this Model 70. My Single Shot rifle in K-Hornet is .125 shorter to the shoulder with a correspondingly .125″ longer neck (made for longer/heavier bullets). The Model 70 K-Hornet case has a very short neck and the shoulder is pushed farther forward. It appears to have been made for the 40-grain pills (or lighter). I am thinking about loading it with some 35-grain V-max bullets and a case full of Lil’Gun powder.
Bert
An improper shoulder angle will be an issue when full length re sizing if you don’t have the correct dies. It is not a problem when shooting if you fire form the brass and can get away with just neck sizing. Properly fire formed brass will be blown out to match the inside of the chamber. Take a fired case and if it goes right back into the chamber just neck size by not bringing the f/l die down so far. The neck length is not a problem. Seat your bullet into the case at least 1-1/2 to 2 bullet diameters. Your measurement from the base of the case to bullet ogive when seating the bullets may or not be the best for the jump to the lands. I have this same neck length problem with the Lee Navy and I don’t have dies. I just resize the neck and fire again.
Chuck,
You are still not grasping (understanding) the issue. I am COMPLETELY up-to-speed on exactly how to size 22 K-hornet cases, and how to reload them properly. Nothing you have said is news to me.
The Model 70 rifle I just bought came with a few hundred empty cases and 90 loaded cartridges, but not with the dies that Lyle Kilbourn custom made for that rifle. As an experiment, I tried chambering one of my K-Hornert cartridges in the Model 70… no-go and the same was true when I tried to chamber one of the original Model 70 K-Hornet cartridge in my Single Shot rifle. The two cartridges are noticeably different in length to the shoulder, and the neck length. I need to have those custom made dies (and they are currently being shipped to me).
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Did you get some brass that was actually shot in your new rifle or sized for your rifle? These should chamber in the new rifle.
It is not unusual that brass that was sized for a different chamber won’t work in another chamber. Especially if you have a “custom” chamber. You do not have a SAAMI Spec chamber like your other guns. The shoulder on your brass has been blown out to fit your chamber. That is why the neck is shorter. Brass is only so long. I bet this is why it won’t chamber in the other guns.
If I were you I would like to get the custom dies too. Would make your reloading easier.
I still say, fire form some new brass. You have no idea how old the brass is or how many times it has been fired. Once fired formed I bet it won’t fit in your other guns and shouldn’t.
You need to take care of this new brass. I don’t know how long it will last without annealing. If the necks start splitting you are back to fire forming new brass. The thickness of the neck has nothing to do with annealing or not. At some point the neck will work harden and split.
Welcome to custom reloading.
November 7, 2015
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Bert-
The dies you’re waiting for are the ones made by Kilbourne? Pretty cool. Best I can tell there is no SAAMI spec for the K-Hornet cartridge so dies made by the same person who chambered the rifle is pretty awesome, on top of the historical aspect. Reckon that reamer is still hiding under somebody’s workbench?
Mike
Bert-
The dies you’re waiting for are the ones made by Kilbourne? Pretty cool.TXGunNut said
Cool, but it was once customary in the heyday of wildcat cartridge design, the ’40s & ’50s–the barrel-smith who chambered the brl for any wildcat cartridge also provided a sizing die for it cut with the same reamer.
TXGunNut said
Bert-The dies you’re waiting for are the ones made by Kilbourne? Pretty cool. Best I can tell there is no SAAMI spec for the K-Hornet cartridge so dies made by the same person who chambered the rifle is pretty awesome, on top of the historical aspect. Reckon that reamer is still hiding under somebody’s workbench?
Mike
Yes, the dies were custom made by Kilbourne, and I received them this afternoon. I will unpack the box that Andy & Justin sent me tomorrow morning and check out the dies.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Bert H. said
TXGunNut said
Bert-
The dies you’re waiting for are the ones made by Kilbourne? Pretty cool. Best I can tell there is no SAAMI spec for the K-Hornet cartridge so dies made by the same person who chambered the rifle is pretty awesome, on top of the historical aspect. Reckon that reamer is still hiding under somebody’s workbench?
Mike
Yes, the dies were custom made by Kilbourne, and I received them this afternoon. I will unpack the box that Andy & Justin sent me tomorrow morning and check out the dies.
It’s impressive that the documentation, dies and all the other accessories stayed together all these years. I hope everything is in good order, should be an interesting project.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Bert H. said
TXGunNut said
Bert-
The dies you’re waiting for are the ones made by Kilbourne? Pretty cool. Best I can tell there is no SAAMI spec for the K-Hornet cartridge so dies made by the same person who chambered the rifle is pretty awesome, on top of the historical aspect. Reckon that reamer is still hiding under somebody’s workbench?
Mike
Yes, the dies were custom made by Kilbourne, and I received them this afternoon. I will unpack the box that Andy & Justin sent me tomorrow morning and check out the dies.
It’s impressive that the documentation, dies and all the other accessories stayed together all these years. I hope everything is in good order, should be an interesting project.
Mike
Yes it is quite impressive, and that is one of the primary reasons why I made the decision that I needed to own this rifle.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Yes it is quite impressive, and that is one of the primary reasons why I made the decision that I needed to own this rifle.
Has the possibility of finding family photos of Dr. Weuster’s with this gun been explored? It was common in the ’40s & ’50s to keep scrapbooks of hunting photos, & the Dr. was obviously proud of his expensive rifle.
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