Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
A new member looking for help - USMC M70 build
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 10
Member Since:
December 24, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
December 24, 2017 - 1:07 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Hello,

Ive recently had good fortune to come across a Winchester M70 in the 150K serial range that I intend to use to make into a rifle that has interested me – a Unertl mounted Carlos Hathcock USMC service rifle.

The rifle isn’t in the right serial block so it wont be an exact replica but its a reasonably complete example of a standard sporter, has some corrosion issues, is not a historical rarity and could use some love and repurposing to ensure it survives and is appreciated…

This is what I want to build….

https://i.imgur.com/nvat1KHl.jpgImage Enlarger

A 1941-42 Standard Sporter in 30-06 that had been rebarreled with a Douglas #7 profile match barrel, mounting a Unertl 1-1/4″ Target.

This is what I have…

https://i.imgur.com/uzXfACvl.jpgImage Enlarger

https://i.imgur.com/TJEXPuQl.jpgImage Enlarger

https://i.imgur.com/f9AUz5El.jpgImage Enlarger

What I have done so far…

Added an early bolt sleeve assembly…

https://i.imgur.com/2ASuoZkl.jpgImage Enlarger

1.5 inch sling swivels

https://i.imgur.com/seTMiyVl.jpgImage Enlarger

What I hope I can get help with is info where to get some Winchester scope blocks in the appropriate size.

Were the rear Winchester blocks one size only?

I understand these to be the available front blocks….

https://i.imgur.com/0q2NVvul.jpgImage Enlarger

My barrel will be close to one inch at the 7.2 inch mounting location. Im guessing Ill need either the .36 or .262 profile. Any sources for parts? Steve Earle makes nice stuff but if I can get original “U” dished that’s a great detail.

Next would be to find a Unertl 1-1/4″ Target. I have the exact scope I need on a Springfield 03 but I want my M70 to have its own glass…

https://i.imgur.com/I51uEi4l.jpgImage Enlarger

and I don’t come to you as a one Winchester enthusiast…

My kids enjoy their 67As

https://i.imgur.com/r77qydUl.jpgImage Enlarger

and my 75 is great fun…

 https://i.imgur.com/xeCyvzul.jpgImage Enlarger

https://i.imgur.com/6puKG1kl.jpgImage Enlarger

 

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Avatar
Winchester, VA
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1008
Member Since:
November 5, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
December 24, 2017 - 7:47 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Hi pmclaine-

Merry Christmas!!! Laugh

The correct blocks for one of those rebuilds (height anyway) are the same as those in the photos below:

Barreled-action-left.jpgImage EnlargerRight-side-action.jpgImage EnlargerAction-top.jpgImage EnlargerBarrel-stamp-2.jpgImage Enlarger

This is a 1955 “Van Orden Sniper” (S/N 351439) so roughly contemporary with the USMC rebuilds of ’42 standard rifles that found their way into combat in Viet Nam.  The Van Orden rifles were basically G7044C (30-06 M70 Target models) that were special ordered from the factory with uncheckered standard style stocks (with special butt stock dimensions that matched the Springfield 03 National Match rifle).  Van Orden’s shop “Evaluators Limited” was located near Quantico VA and sold a couple hundred of these during the ’50s.  They were sold either to civilians (as was the case with S/N 351439) or to armed forces marksmanship units.  Some few of the military Van Ordens found their way to Viet Nam, but probably not many.

The blocks on the Van Orden are Lyman type.  The front block (appropriate for the M70 target rifle) is 0.360″ tall.  The rear block is 0.185″ tall (same as the Unertl ‘U’ block) and same style as the barrel mounted block.  Below is a regular M70 target rifle from ’42 with the same blocks:

50415-E.jpgImage Enlarger

I’m sure you know that the USMC rebuilds used either M70 target barrels ordered as parts from Winchester or Douglas barrels of the same dimensions.  So those height blocks should work for you.  I do not know whether the USMC rifles used Lyman or Unertl (flat top) blocks.  Others here may have a better idea.  The Unertl blocks might be easier to find and would probably be correct.

Hope this helps,

Lou

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

WACA-Signauture-3.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 10
Member Since:
December 24, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
December 24, 2017 - 8:48 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Very helpful sir.

I see some blocks on Ebay described as Lyman “U” blocks that have the correct profile. Maybe these?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Redfield-Lyman-Unertyl-Scope-Mount-Base-Mounting-Block-U-mark-SEE-MEASUREMENTS/263348630475?hash=item3d50cd33cb:g:sJUAAOSwPzhaDaBr

My rifle will have a Douglas but there is some historical hear say (possibly wrong) that the Douglas was a bit heavier profile ending at a .875 muzzle from +/- 1.2 straight taper.

I believe that may be the case with the Lance Corporal pictured in the period photo, the shank of his barrel is close to meeting the diameter of the front receiver ring…..

https://i.imgur.com/Bp7Szd8l.jpgImage Enlarger

The WRA barrels are thought to be identified by the front sight block…..

https://i.imgur.com/aAEsjwOl.jpgImage Enlarger

There are way more photos of Win barrels than those that “may be” the Douglas replacements.

Ill study your photos more got to get kids to a Christmas party. Merry Christmas to you.

Avatar
Winchester, VA
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1008
Member Since:
November 5, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
December 24, 2017 - 11:26 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Merry Christmas!!!

That eBay lot is a correct style/height block for the receiver ring.

The barrel contour/scope block height matter is an interesting question.  I took some measurements off a 1948 Winchester 30-06 target rifle with it’s 24″ medium heavy straight taper barrel.  The diameter of the barrel at the rear 6-48 hole for the barrel block is about 1.120″.  The muzzle diameter is about 0.790″.  These are the barrels with a factory-installed 0.360″ tall block.  Note that is overall height of block, not height above barrel. 

You are right that target barrels obtained from Winchester would have two 6-48 D&T holes at the muzzle that could mount a Lyman ‘A’ sight block (whether the block was there or not, the holes were).  They’d also have the standard Winchester barrel address/caliber designation stamps.   I only (think I) know what I (think) recall having read (Chandler and/or Senich) about the Douglas barrel contour.  If the Douglas barrels were heavier (which could very well be) it would help to get the diameter at the scope block holes and go from there.  How long is your barrel?  24″ or 26″?

A 24″ straight taper barrel measuring 0.875″ at the muzzle would be a heavy beast.  The M70 bull gun (which is surely a heavy beast) had a 28″ barrel that was 0.845″ at the muzzle (0.875″ at the 26″ point).  Those barrels used a 0.262″ tall block (according to the Winchester parts catalogs).  A 24″ barrel that was 0.875″ at the muzzle would probably need something in-between a 0.360″ tall block and a 0.262″ block.  Also depends on whether you are are intending at shoot at 1000 yards.

One thing I’ll add here to confuse others as much as I am confused…  The 0.262″ tall blocks used on bull guns would have left very little metal for the screw if they were produced in the Lyman style.  If you look at the 1939 Winchester parts catalog you can find where the 0.262″ block for the M54 bull gun is specified as “flat top”.  The same part in the M70 section of the catalog also specifies the height but does not say that it is flat on top.  My earliest M70 bull gun (S/N 22353) shown below, has a flat top 0.262″ tall barrel block (like the M54 specification) that I think is original (they’re slightly different from the Unertl B70 block).  OTOH, Steve Emmert has factor blueprints of the M70 bull barrel from the ’40s that specify the 0.360″ block on the bull gun.  So there you have it… Even the factory was confused!!!

M70-22353-Blocks.jpgImage Enlarger

Lou

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

WACA-Signauture-3.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 10
Member Since:
December 24, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
December 25, 2017 - 3:49 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Saw these bases on Ebay…..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WINCHESTER-70-Steel-Scope-Mount-Base-Mounting-Blocks-2-Piece-Redfield-Lyman-etc/263386496256?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

https://i.imgur.com/FDmyYWNl.jpgImage Enlarger

The mystery to me is what bases do I need for the distances I want to shoot….

My local range only gives me 300 yards and typically Ill shoot from 100 to 300. I would like the ability to go to 1000 though perhaps taking the rifle to Sig Academy for their one day Reach for 1000 class just to see how it hammers steel.

The pictured bases seem to be on the thin side. I guess the relationship between rear base and front base will establish initial cant on the scope and that in turn determines how much elevation you lose attaining zero which will limit your total elevation on top.

A mystery to me that Ill try to figure out. With the bases pictured I was thinking if they were fat the gunsmith could machine a little off the bottom to make any height base needed.

This makes my head spin.

and a Marine that has done a lot of study on the USMC sniper rifle by name of Cpl Norton came across this neat picture last evening….

https://i.imgur.com/zcHi4igl.jpgImage Enlarger

Im thinking that is a rebarrel with the heavier Douglas replacement.

Hey Merry Christmas everyone.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2359
Member Since:
December 31, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
December 25, 2017 - 5:12 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I don’t know what happened to my original post, but here is a genuine Van Orden Sniper rifle sold to the US Army at the 1954 National Matches. Yes, I do have the receipt. It had US markings on the receiver, but some paranoid idiot ground them off. The rifle is as bought at Camp Perry. My late friend and author, Peter Senich, shows it in his sniper book with a Sporter stock and he said it was probably used in Viet Nam. When a friend gave me the rifle, I put it back in a original target stock the way it came from Camp Perry. # 272958, has a 1953 dated medium heavy bbl. Lyman 48WH rear sight, and a Lyman 77 front.   Merry Christmas to all.     Big Larry

Copy-of-Van-Orden-Sniper-M70-001-2.jpgImage Enlarger

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 6
Member Since:
December 25, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
December 25, 2017 - 6:39 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I attended a local auction last Saturday and bought what I had hoped would be an original National Match Model 70.  I had recalled that a real NM would have a standard barrel and my purchase has what looks like a heavy target barrel, 24″.  It is still a nice Model 70, even though I was bid up by a local dealer/collector.  I spoke to him after the bidding and asked for his opinion about the rifle.  He said it was not a NM and had the “wrong” stock.  I didn’t get the gist of his comment, but still went home happy with a nice old Model 70 Target.  Today, I went to the Winchester Collectors forum and found some more information, pictures, and the Van Orden sniper gun list.  My new gun is on the Van Orden list.  It was sold to Fred E. Barnes in May of 1953, serial number 220,498.  I am a bit familiar with Van Orden and the Evaluators Ltd store from the Smith and Wesson forum discussions.  I also have a little history at Quantico from shooting the Olympic Skeet competition program in the eighties and nineties there.  The Van Orden gun was the only target gun in the auction, and there was also a 10X Unertl in the auction, so I assume it was removed from the Van Orden Sniper for the sale.  I also purchased the Unertl.  I can’t believe my luck.  I have no idea of the value of a Van Orden Sniper, and don’t really care.  I just can’t wait to get out to the range.Cool 

Avatar
Winchester, VA
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1008
Member Since:
November 5, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
December 25, 2017 - 8:10 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Merry Christmas-

Those blocks on eBay are the right ones for the M70 medium heavy target barrel.  The heights stated in my earlier posts, as well as in Rule’s book and the Winchester component parts catalogs, refer to overall height, i.e. how high the top of the block would sit above the surface of a flat table, NOT how high the top of the block sits above a round barrel.  The seller does not show those measurements in his photos.

For reference, the M70 bull gun barrel was 1.250″ where it exited the receiver, about 1.178″ in diameter at the point of the rearmost barrel block hole (5.02″ forward of the receiver), and 0.845″ at the muzzle 27.27″ from the receiver (O.A.L. including threads was 28″).  This means that the M70 bull gun barrel was only about 0.060″ larger in diameter at the rear screw hole than the medium heavy target barrel (meaning about 0.030″ difference in radius).  

I can only guess that the reason the factory (initially at least) put a 0.262″ tall front block on the bull gun (fully 0.098″ lower than the 0.360″ block on the target rifle) was NOT simply to compensate for the thicker barrel.  That would have only required a height difference of 30 thousandths.  So it must have been b/c the bull gun was considered a 1000 yard target rifle and the genuinely lower front block would give some extra elevation adjustment for extreme range.  

So even with the M70 bull gun contour, a 0.360″ tall block would work fine at the ranges you would be doing most of your shooting.  If the Douglas barrel contour you are using is even heavier than that, you might want to use something not as tall.  

If the Douglas barrel is 1.178 inches (or larger) in diameter at the point of the rearmost block hole, you might just go with a Unertl B70 block on the barrel and ‘U’ block on the receiver.  That should give you a 1000 yard rifle.  OTOH I also like the plan of buying two of those 0.360″ blocks and having 0.030″ to 0.060″ milled off the bottom of one of them.  Smile

Good luck,

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

WACA-Signauture-3.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 10
Member Since:
December 24, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
December 25, 2017 - 8:35 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Thank you all for your patience with my questions and your great responses.

Hadnt thought of buying two fronts and shaving one but now I will.

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 10
Member Since:
December 24, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
December 25, 2017 - 8:52 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Big Larry said
I don’t know what happened to my original post, but here is a genuine Van Orden Sniper rifle sold to the US Army at the 1954 National Matches. Yes, I do have the receipt. It had US markings on the receiver, but some paranoid idiot ground them off. The rifle is as bought at Camp Perry. My late friend and author, Peter Senich, shows it in his sniper book with a Sporter stock and he said it was probably used in Viet Nam. When a friend gave me the rifle, I put it back in a original target stock the way it came from Camp Perry. # 272958, has a 1953 dated medium heavy bbl. Lyman 48WH rear sight, and a Lyman 77 front.   Merry Christmas to all.     Big Larry

Copy-of-Van-Orden-Sniper-M70-001-2.jpgImage Enlarger  

Sir your post ended up here….

https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/van-orden/

And I enjoyed it, great rifle!

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 6
Member Since:
December 25, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
December 26, 2017 - 1:52 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

It took a while to get moderator approval for my post yesterday and several posts slipped in, in the meantime.  Please read and enjoy my post from December 25. 

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 10
Member Since:
December 24, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
March 10, 2018 - 3:19 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

My project is coming along great.

Im going with the option to use irons if I want to.

Up front I found a nice Winchester 105A sight with rare post insert to use.

At the rear I want to have a Lyman 48WH available.

Looking for a nice Lyman 48WH to buy if anyone wants to clear some excess parts from their collection.

Thanks you for your consideration.

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 10
Member Since:
December 24, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
March 10, 2018 - 3:32 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

https://i.imgur.com/nN0fSmpl.jpgImage Enlarger

https://i.imgur.com/prLdy2kl.jpgImage Enlarger

https://i.imgur.com/CqS8D51l.jpgImage Enlarger

https://i.imgur.com/jCzfoJbl.jpgImage Enlarger

https://i.imgur.com/1pD08Pql.jpgImage Enlarger

https://i.imgur.com/eRHp9Q9l.jpgImage Enlarger

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6527
TXGunNut: 5197
Chuck: 4679
steve004: 4344
1873man: 4330
Big Larry: 2359
twobit: 2323
mrcvs: 1773
TR: 1732
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12931
Posts: 112789

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1793
Members: 8941
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation