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Does anyone know if there is a photo-library, or can original examples of finish be posted by forum members of carbines from the teens, maybe into the ’20’s? Maybe this also applies to 1892 carbines, but it seems to me that there is a fair number of different finishes I have seen over the years, some of which may, or may not be, original finishes. I think some of my confusion lies not only in the finishes available, but also, the wood surfaces available, because, not only were walnut stocks/forearms available, but some were gum wood at this time. Does anyone know what time frame the gum woods were used and what the gum wood(s) might have been?
I have a 38-55 SRC # 1004027 PR 7-14-1927 with a Gumwood stock and handguard. 5th one in from right to left. I didn’t know it was Gumwood until I was told so by advanced collectors. Big Larry
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Big Larry:
I’m beginning to worry that you will be passing me up in my attempt to consume all the ’94 carbines!
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I don’t know when "gum wood" stocks were first introduced but I’ve got a couple of 1894 carbines made in 1908 that have it on them.
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Off the top of my head, I believe that the only gumwood I’ve seen has been on 92 and 94 SRCs. Don’t think I seen any on rifles or on any other models.
As to Winchester’s wood finishes, it’s something I’ve done some research on; without a whole lot of luck. I know Winchester purchased their stains and finishes form the Lawrence/McFadden Co. They were proprietary finishes to the L/M Co, so all I have are L/M finish numbers.
The L/M company has been bought out/sold several times so the original company no longer exists. . As far as I can find, the information as to the exact formulations are lost to time or the dumpster.
To add to the discussion I have a 1906 made in 1915 that has a Gum Wood stock.
This question came about because I have two Winchester 1894 carbines, both dating from 1915.
They are, as follows:
1) Winchester 1894, in .38-55, number 795482, dating from 29 September 1915. Clearly gum wood, clearly original finish, the better of the two condition-wise. Probably an 80-85% firearm.
2) Winchester 1894, in .32-40, number 809720, dating from 08 November 1915. Not so clear as to whether or not it is gum wood, appears to be more like walnut. Not 100% certain if the wood finish is original, although it appears to be the case. Finish, however, is considerably different than the other rifle; condition is maybe at 65 to 70%.
These firearms were produced only 40 days apart, and yet the stocks appear quite different. Potential causes: Both are gum wood, and the .32-40 has been refinished, although having had the firearm apart, this appears unlikely. Or, the .32-40 is walnut and the .38-55 is gum wood. Or, the .32-40 is a different gum wood than the .38-55. Or, the finish is different on both, either intentionally, or due to different types or production lots of finish. Or…???
What would the reason be for gum woods? Presumably a lower cost. Was it all encompassing during certain serial number ranges, or not? Specific to calibre(s)? Has anyone done a survey of gum wood 1892 and/or 1894 carbines, and possibly other models such as the 1906 referenced above?
It’s been my personal observation that most of the gumwood carbines were produced in the mid to late teens. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it also seems that I read somewhere that gumwood was often used due a shortage of American walnut at that time due to the war effort (WWI). I believe all of the documented 1894 Spruce carbines were gumwood for this reason, as well.
Rick Hill said
Big Larry:I’m beginning to worry that you will be passing me up in my attempt to consume all the ’94 carbines!
Not really. You are the GUHRU of M1894’s. Besides, I like the M1892’s better, but they are too expensive for me. Add to that, S&W’s, Colts, Rugers, and a few others. Martially marked too. Rick, you are one of my favorite persons. You and your lovely wife. Happy New Year to you both. Big Larry
I had a Model 1894 SRC 38-55 that was shipped in 1907 that had gum wood stocks. Here is a photo ….
From Madis:
"For extra light weight, as well as to cut costs of manufacture, some models 92, especially the carbines, had stocks and fore ends of gum wood. The lower cost for gum wood and the reduction in weight was offset by difficulty in manufacture; this type of wood had a tendency to crack and chip badly. Gum wood was used from 1896, with some stocks remaining on hand until 1938."
"Some of the models 94 carbines were provided with stocks of wood other than walnut, though rarely. Gum, Linden and Boxwood were all used in the attempt to reduce weight and costs of manufacture. But none of these proved satisfactory."
"An oiled finish was standard; varnished walnut was available if ordered."
Not to highjack the thread, but a question regarding gumwood that Oakridge’s post got me thinking about. He noted that Madis stated that gumwood tended to chip and crack, we all know it is softer than the American Walnut traditionally used. That said, I saw an 1894 SRC floating around up here that a 94 collector in Canada brought up from the US. It is gumwood, and has checkered stocks, H Style. He said he bought it from a well known 94 collector in the US, and that it once belonged to George Madis. That said, has anyone ever seen checkered gumwood stocks? Looked right, but as was pointed out by another collector to me, he didn’t think Winchester would checker gumwood, as soft as it is. Makes sense, and I have never heard or seen of another, but I always kinda wonder about it. Just wondering if anyone has seen any other possible examples or have thoughts on it.
Matt
Regarding finishes: From the 1930s on, unless special ordered, all models had sprayed lacquer finishes. The term "varnish" has been widely used but that is incorrect.
Model 70s are my main interest and there is a lot of variation in the appearance of factory original lacquer finishes on Pre-64 M70 stocks. Some of the variation is due to time periods. In the 1930s, carnauba wax was mixed with lacquer resulting in a more glossy finish. The post-war guns were finished with lacquer from Inter-Chemical Company. Quite a few of the early post-war (transition) M70s have a "dry" look with a thin coat of finish. In the late 1950s, many M70s had a thicker coat of lacquer. And as the walnut used varied a lot over time, it took the finish differently.
It takes a lot of time and experience looking at hundreds of stocks to build enough expertise to tell what is factory original from what is not. Some collectors pass on original guns thinking they are not original because they have limited experience and haven’t seen enough originals to be sure. On the other hand, some experienced collectors get fooled at times by non-original refinished wood.
Two comments concerning issues raised by this thread:
1. Spruce guns definately had a mix of both walnut and gumwood stocks. Mix seems to be about 50% – 50%.
2. I have never heard of or seen factory checkered gumwood used on any Winchester.
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There is no way a gumstock could have left the factory checkered. The wood is just too soft for it. In fact, there are few woods that are great candidates for checkering, walnut, of course, being one of the few. It has to be a rather hard wood (like walnut) and also possess a tight grain (rules out oak and ash). Maple would also be a good candidate to checker, I should think.
From what Ive seen, Gum wood is on most all 94 SRCs from about 300,00 to the beginning of the 900,000s. Bert may have a closer definition. Bert has said that he has seen some original Gum wood on Carbines latter than 900,000, but I havent seen any that I would say a absolutely original past then
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