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If you look at the end of the magazine on the GB gun, the end of the magazine lines up with the dash in front of the word Winchester of the barrel address. Rick’s mag lines up with the word "repeating" part of the barrel address. This assumes that the location of the barrel address is the same on both guns. Just another observation.
Paul
It is really impossible to guess as to what any manufacturing company
might let out the door. The bottom line it boils down to making money.
Winchester was no different than any other company in history they had
hard times as well as good, so more than likely when times where hard they
may not have been as concerned about QC. Also if for some reason the
person who put the barrel band on didn’t notice it and the inspector of
such was way overloaded he may have missed it. There are all sorts of
things one could think of to explain some of the things out of the norm.
For what its worth after Marlin discontinued the Model 36 and introduced
the Model 336 it is not uncommon at all to find the same situation as being
mentioned. The barrel band right in the middle of the barrel address. The
first time I came across this I was positive in my mind that Marlin would
have let this happen but it sure appears that they did because it is just to
common to run across one. Over the years I have learned the hard way to
never say never or say I didn’t leave the factory that way?
This rifle started quite a debate–it’s great to hear all the "experts" hash things out. As a newbie, I’ve found this forum to be a valuable source of information to the novice collector (as myself). It seems I learn something new everyday. Anyway, maybe I’m off base here, but lf the GB carbine did begin life with a short fore-end, it seems too much of the magazine would be exposed. Am I missing something? Also, wouldn’t there be some kind of markings or wear marks left behind from where the barrel band had previously been? Also, from the photos, I don’t see any evidence or markings on the wood or metal suggesting that the barrel band / fore-end had ever been removed or messed with. Just my personal observations 😕 .
Length of Forend Wood on a 18" Barrel, Model 1894 Carbine?
Maybe Winchester wasn’t that concerned about the length of wood?
My 18" Barrel Winchester Model 1894, has a 9" Length Forend wood.
The Forend Band doesn’t cover up any of the Barrel Address Markings.
Just my opnion, on Ricks Carbine with the 7" something forend wood, they might have realized it was a shorter than standard carbine so they used wood for a 15" or 16" barrel carbine?
Just a thought.
"I Would Have Rather Lived Through The Industrial Revaluation"
"Instead of The Space Age"
From
The Twilight Zone
My guess is that back around 1910 or so, the forend got cracked, and the owner took it to a local gunsmith to get repaird, not having a short forend in sock, the smith fitted an original longer forend to the carbine, and that’s the way it’s been for the past 103 years.
A quick look onder the forend would answer a lot, but unfortunately one would have to buy it to find out.
Mike Hunter wrote:
I’m gonna disagree with Rick a bit, my guess as to the carbine on GB is that the carbine originally had the shorter forend on it; as the placement of the address is correct for the short forend. Then, sometime in its life the forend was replaced with the longer forend.
That sounds like something I would/did say just from a different point of view:
If the barrel is 18 inches long shouldn’t the fore end wood be the short style? This wood is half the length of the barrel. If you had an original short fore end then it might fit the barrel address placement better. Thus moving the retaining ring one inch to the right in image #8.
And Rick Hill replied:
I agree, it could very likely be a replaced forearm but then again it was not that unusual to have a longer forearm on short barreled guns particularly if they were not very short.
I have not seen ANY short barrel carbines or rifles in the Model 1892 line that have covered barrel address stamps.
Rick, your post showing that "half magazines" and "button magazines" which are commonly referred to as half magazines can be different lengths depending on what the "Entire length" of the barrel is to start with. !/2 = 1/2 only in certain situations.
Pictured below is my 18" carbine shown back-to-back with a standard 20" barreled carbine with a 1/2 length mag. for comparison.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
I am no expert but if the shorter fore-arm was replaced with the longer
one wouldn’t the magazine tube have had to be replaced as well as the
barrel having to have had an additional notch cut for the different location
of the barrel band.
quantrez said
I am no expert but if the shorter fore-arm was replaced with the longer
one wouldn’t the magazine tube have had to be replaced as well as the
barrel having to have had an additional notch cut for the different location
of the barrel band.
Yes, and that is why Mike wants to buy it and take it apart ❗
Sorry Mike, I could not resist prodding you into buying it 😛
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
A pre-existing short forearm barrel band would leave marks visible on the top of the barrel as well. There are no marks so the long forearm was original to that gun.
By the way, Winchester did cut down barrels from the muzzle end to make a brand new special order gun. (This is how most of the long forearm short rifles came to be). I have owned a rifle with a "short heavy barrel" that was obviously all cut down from 26" with beautiful factory quality cuts, only those cuts were all in the white. It lettered just as it was proving that Winchester did it. If Winchester had to meet a time deadline it was not difficult for them to rework an existing rifle and it may have been more cost effective compared to making up an odd length barrel from scratch.
twobit said
The fore end on Rick’s looks shorter and would therefore the extent of the exposed magazine looks similar to the longer "half magazine" and long fore end wood.Michael
These are rifles but, both are the same except one has the 8 3/8" forearm and the other has the 9 3/8" forearm. This is just to show the difference in appearance with the 2 different size forearms on basically the same rifles.
Paul
[Image Can Not Be Found]
Obviously, the short forearm is far more pleasing to look at (on a short barrel). Thanks, for the pictures showing this.
I agree with deerhunter – the length of the magazine and the absence of wear marks on the barrel are clues that says to me that the carbine left the factory with the longer forearm.
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NRA Life Member
Rick
Generally I would agree with you, but in my few years of messing with Winchesters, I have never seen an example where Winchester covered up or disfigured the barrel address.
I have seen where Winchester has gone out of their way to accommodate special order features and still maintain the integrity of their barrel address. Couple of examples would be special sights such as the 7 leaf express sight, where Winchester moved the location of the barrel addy further down the barrel. 1885 with dovetails for special scope/sight mounts, where one of the dovetails would have gone thru the address, Winchester often moved the address to the side flat.
So I have never seen this before; we have a lot of highly knowledgeable collectors on this sight, does anyone have an example of Winchester factory work covering or disfiguring their barrel address?
One of the issues I see is that this particular carbine was noted in a book; unfortunately when this happens there is great potential for questionable configurations to become legitimized.
As I’ve noted before, the only way to figure out if that is actual factory work is to examine areas of the barrel and mag tube hidden under the forend.
V/R
Mike
Spent all day remodeling and didn’t get back to this thread ’til now…
Wow! WOW! I’m going to print all this information and file it in case I come across a shortie that I can afford. The GB rifle is a "tad" above my budget.
Thanks for taking my basic questions and thoroughly covering plus so much more.
My friend visiting has a quote: "Model 92 in 44-40" that he says is a "carbine". He didn’t recall specifics off the top of his head. Since he’s in Oregon I asked him to send photos when he gets back home.
Be interesting to see what he got for $100 at a garage sale many years ago.
ohlode,
Please post/send me the photos and the serial number when you get them.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Its amazing what you find in garage sales, a friend of my dads bought what he thought were 5 bb guns bundled together for $50.00. One of the BB guns turned out being a first model 1873 carbine.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Mike Hunter said
So I have never seen this before; we have a lot of highly knowledgeable collectors on this sight, does anyone have an example of Winchester factory work covering or disfiguring their barrel address?V/R
Mike
Mike,
I know of one example where Winchester drilled & tapped the barrel on a Take Down Model 1885 (low-wall) and drilled through part of the barrel address. The rifle letters with an A-5 Telescope.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought Robert Renneberg was a member of this forum. Since he was a previous owner of the GB carbine and featured it in his book, it would be interesting if he could join in here and provide some details to justify his conclusions about this piece. I wonder if he had ever removed the fore-end to uncover the mystery that everyone is debating about???
Mike: This is not an example of where the barrel address is covered
up but it does pertain to what Winchester did at the Factory that would
leave one to question what they did to salvage parts instead of throwing
them away. The example that I am referring to is the run of Model 1894’s
Carbine’s assembled with the rechambered Model 1895 Musket barrels.????
I am old enough to know that the floor manager at the time (Ezekial Obama) moved the markings on some barrels just to mess with you guys who he was sure would get their panties in a knot about it in the future. I have had several short carbines with a partially covered barrel marking – there is even one in Madis – it’s a conspiracy I tell you.
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