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I have a 1892 that has REFINISHED stamped on the barrel underneath the forend followed by 3 stamped initials. Is this stamping from Winchester or just from another gunsmith?
I disagree with Floyd’s statement.
The "REFINISHED" marking is no doubt followed by the initials "J.P.P.", and it is indeed a Winchester factory marking. I have observed it on at least a dozen different Winchester barrels. Typically, there will also be an order number stamped on the barrel, which will correspond to the "R&R" entry in the factory warehouse ledger records.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
I disagree with Floyd’s statement.The "REFINISHED" marking is no doubt followed by the initials "J.P.P.", and it is indeed a Winchester factory marking. I have observed it on at least a dozen different Winchester barrels. Typically, there will also be an order number stamped on the barrel, which will correspond to the "R&R" entry in the factory warehouse ledger records.
Bert
I agree with Bert’s assessment. Pretty darn good chance these are Mr. Parker’s initials. I have an 1894 deluxe short rifle that is stamped "REFINISHED" underneath the barrel, and are followed by his initials as well as a new order number which matches the R&R on the letter. I have had two other factory refinished 1886 ELWs, both stamped "REFINISHED" – this time on upper tang – but did not include JPP. That is only to say you won’t always find his initials on a factory refinish, but I’m guessing that’s what yours are.
Matt
That would be a factory mark. I have a 76 with refinished,rebarreled,rebored,and rechambered stamped under the barrel.
Thanks, that is exactly what it is. Beautiful Winchester, made in 1906 and probably in 95% refinished condition.
If otherwise undetectable, and the finish looks original to the gun, does finding a "refinished" mark under the barrel kill the value? I know that some people consider a "period" refinish by the factory as not too detracting. At one time, a "refinish" was a "refinish", no matter who did it. Today, some things seem to be more acceptable. collector-wise. Some thoughts?
oakridge said
If otherwise undetectable, and the finish looks original to the gun, does finding a "refinished" mark under the barrel kill the value? I know that some people consider a "period" refinish by the factory as not too detracting. At one time, a "refinish" was a "refinish", no matter who did it. Today, some things seem to be more acceptable. collector-wise. Some thoughts?
A Winchester marked "REFINISHED" with JPP (J.P Parker) marked on it would not detract the value at all to me. It is still Winchester work, period. And, in fact, it reveals some of the gun’s history to a person. From what I have read, Parker was Winchesters model room wizard and one of Winchesters best barrel guys (shortening, refinishing, rechambering, etc). Not sure why that would hurt value any, especially if the R&R order number is also stamped on the gun. It is all part of the Winchester’s Winchester history. But, some maybe disagree. Different story altogether if work is done outside the factory of course. Just my 2 cents 🙂
Matt
Personal opinion here.
I agree that an outside job, even one better than Winchester could do, would be less desirable than an inside job. But I’d rather have a rough original than a Winchester-refinished original in great shape; and, the further apart the dates from original use to the refinish, the less I’d like it. An early gun that was re-done after the frontier had closed might as well be a gun of the later date as far as I’m concerned. Can I explain it? No. Just the way I feel.
By analogy, I’d rather have an old, beat up Colt Calvary than a 100% Artillery that used to be an old beat up Calvary.
James Riley said
Personal opinion here.I agree that an outside job, even one better than Winchester could do, would be less desirable than an inside job. But I’d rather have a rough original than a Winchester-refinished original in great shape; and, the further apart the dates from original use to the refinish, the less I’d like it. An early gun that was re-done after the frontier had closed might as well be a gun of the later date as far as I’m concerned. Can I explain it? No. Just the way I feel.
By analogy, I’d rather have an old, beat up Colt Calvary than a 100% Artillery that used to be an old beat up Calvary.
I can see your point there James. I collect 1894s, and I don’t know that I’d want to really see a real early 1894 refinished 20 or 30 years later to like new. The bluing, etc, wouldn’t even be the same. Nor an early frontier 73, etc, to look like new that far down the road. My 1894 I referred to had the REFINISH 11 months after originally shipped, and it letters as is. Only reason the gun was likely refinished in this case, is that it was a rifle that was exported to Britian – it is full of British proofs – and, I’m guessing the rework was done after the British proofhouse was finished with it. If I recall, the two 86 ELWs I had were refinished within a year or so of being shipped, one to almost a completely different rifle. Good points you bring up though. With everything. people will feel differently on this.
Matt
Just my opinion, but a verified factory refinish back in the late 1800s or early 1900s should have no detrimental effect on the value of the gun. It was sent back to Winchester, and it was refinished using factory specifications and methods.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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