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I understand that. That is not a deluxe pattern. It is a pattern used exclusively for pigeon grades.
Great photos and thanks for posting them. I sure have nothing that compares to those. Peter
Renegade, you have a gorgeous collection of Model 61’s. My only complaint is that some of your photos are a little on the small side. Beautiful guns and wood like that deserves a larger photo. 😀
Win38-55 said
Renegade, you have a gorgeous collection of Model 61’s. My only complaint is that some of your photos are a little on the small side. Beautiful guns and wood like that deserves a larger photo. 😀
Thanks for the feedback. I changed the pictures to the recommended 600 megapixels wide.
CJS57 said
[Image Can Not Be Found]This is an uncataloged Deluxe grade 94 that I owned several years ago. No way to prove it, but the checkering is identical to another one that a big wig Winchester historian’s owned. It sold for about $3500 so someone agreed.
It seems several Winchester Models had "Deluxe" versions that were not cataloged. Looks great!
P.Muerrle said
I understand that. That is not a deluxe pattern. It is a pattern used exclusively for pigeon grades.
Apparently, if a customer wanted and ordered that particular pattern, Winchester would provide it. Many examples exist. End labels and hang tags were subsequently stamped "Deluxe" by the factory. Pigeon grade on shotguns or Deluxe grade on rifles,…… common checkering pattern, different names.
Deluxe was a pattern specific to the model. I have numerous checkering templates given to me by John Durkin of the Winchester Custom Shop. All are labeled as to the model, pattern and in the case of shotguns, gauge. A deluxe pattern for a Model 61 is a very specific pattern. It is not any pattern a customer requested. If a customer did request something out of the ordinary the factory would mark the end label Special not Deluxe. They were also marked and notated this way on the work orders.
P.Muerrle said
Deluxe was a pattern specific to the model. I have numerous checkering templates given to me by John Durkin of the Winchester Custom Shop. All are labeled as to the model, pattern and in the case of shotguns, gauge. A deluxe pattern for a Model 61 is a very specific pattern. It is not any pattern a customer requested. If a customer did request something out of the ordinary the factory would mark the end label Special not Deluxe. They were also marked and notated this way on the work orders.
So explain to me why Winchester had Special Deluxe stamped on the end labels and hang tags.
See also, previous pictures with Semi-Deluxe on end labels and hang tags. It does not say Semi-Special. I know of dozens of examples of FACTORY marked boxes using the word Deluxe on Model 61’s, 62’s and 63’s.
Here is another example:
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/Renegade9171/media/Rifles/61%20Semi-Deluxe/5e569f73-f7a0-4fa4-aebe-10a4bda23362_zps82c41743.jpg.html
And yet another one:
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/Renegade9171/media/Rifles/61%20Short%20Deluxe%20Gallery/DSCF1521_zps5f59e859.jpg.html
Looks to me like they used the word DELUXE.
One box says Deluxe and two boxes say Special Deluxe. Maybe Special Deluxe means some additional special order feature over and beyond Deluxe.
What is the correct way to store one of those rifles or shotguns that is "in the box" & has all the hang tags? Seems to me that cardboard attracts moisture & that the gun would eventually rust on the side in contact with the cardboard.
I am referring to the checkering only. There are other options that can make a gun a deluxe such as engraving, special wood etc. As I said earlier, John Durkin had several specific patterns that were listed as Deluxe for the Winchester 22s. I knew John for over 20 years and talked extensively with him on this subject. You should also keep in mind when collecting M61, 62 and 63s that several 100 were put out "in the box" by a man who recently passed away. They were all either engraved or had special features of some sort. Many of them he had roll marked Winchester on the receiver. If you haven’t heard of this guy ask around. Other collectors are very familiar with him. I would be careful when collecting these models, especially "in the box".Many of the ones he put out also came with fake manufacturing orders too.
This is what I alluded to on my post dated May 15, 2013 in this same thread.
oakridge said
One box says Deluxe and two boxes say Special Deluxe. Maybe Special Deluxe means some additional special order feature over and beyond Deluxe.
I believe that is the case here. Some examples have Special Wood, Polished carriers, logos, grip caps, sights, etc. I have not seen any other examples of Semi-Deluxe with upgraded wood but smooth forearms without checkering. Maybe that is why the terminology "Semi-Deluxe"?
waterman said
What is the correct way to store one of those rifles or shotguns that is "in the box" & has all the hang tags? Seems to me that cardboard attracts moisture & that the gun would eventually rust on the side in contact with the cardboard.
I have a room that is not subject to dramatic changes in temperature or humidity. Many of my "boxed" guns are out of the box for display. I try to open and rub down the boxed ones regularly to keep them in new condition. All the boxes still have their original wax paper between the gun and any cardboard.
There you go! One of the phony work orders I mentioned earlier. I also am very familiar with the man he bought it from which just makes it worse.
So if I have this right, the S&W forum shown M-61 Smoothbore Deluxe is not a real Winchester factory made gun? But was gunsmith made up with papers and tags to look like factory? Honestly, the workmanship is beyond belief good! I would like to meet whoever made it!
The guy who put these things out died almost 2 tears ago. He put out 100s. That is why the market is flooded right now with NIB 22s. Also M12, 42 and 70 collectors beware of NIBs, especially any of these with manufacturing orders. The last RIA sale had a M70 NIB with an identical work order that this one has, different addressee, highly engraved and inlaid, that was also put together by this guy. They did a very good job on this Model 61 but if you look closely the butt plate and pg cap are repros and the screws were not engraved by Nick or John Kusmit, who were the only engravers there at that time. I have seen many work orders when I worked at the shop and have 100s of them in my possession. Not only were they not handed out to the customer but they don’t even look like these. This guy was counting on the fact that no one really knows what work orders look like. I have tried posting pics on this site but can’t seem to do it. If someone wants to post some pics of real work orders on here I will be more than happy to email them some.
Even if you don’t know what a real work order looks like just note the condition of it. No crease, no tear, no stain or discoloration, not even a greasy thumbprint on a paper that is over 50 years old! That should send up warning flags on its own.
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