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C&R FFL
May 14, 2013
3:29 am
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I have a question about a C&R FFL license. Does having this license give the owner of such a license the legal right to transfer a gun 50 years old or older from any of the lower 48 states from either a FFL holder or a non FFL holder? I am talking about rifles, pistols etc for my own collection...not buying for resale and no machine guns or anything like that. The question came up that maybe some States do not allow this and before I could get one of these type guns from a seller in those States, he would have to pay to have it shipped to me from his FFL. Clarification if you know. Thanks, Peter

May 14, 2013
6:14 am
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Sounds like you read the the info on the ATF sight. The C and R lets you buy guns across state lines that are copnsidered collector. They have a whole list you can look up. You need to know laws in your own state. TFor the C an R they are pretty clear that you are not to be business with that license. Just a collector. they dont specify how many transactions you can have. In Texas as long as you only do things in state, you have more flexabliity without a license but the c an r is nice. I can get the guns shipped straight to my house.

May 14, 2013
7:28 am
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The local ATF agents interpret the C&R laws differently. I talked to a local guy and he was told by a ATF agent out of Minneapolis that more than 5 out going transfers a year he considers "In business" and would come down on him.

Bob

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May 14, 2013
7:41 am
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It is my understanding that even when you close your C&R, your records are not turned in to the BATF and I have not heard of anyone with a C&R ever being inspected by them so, how would they know how many transactions you had? I know that the C&R does not give you the right to be in business of selling guns but, you should be able to upgrade by selling some to buy better ones.

Paul

May 14, 2013
8:21 am
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A Type-03 FFL (C&R) is good in all (50) states... not just the "lower 48 states", as it is a Federal issued license.

Now with that stated, there are a few states that have imposed stricter regulations concerning the transfer of C&R eligible firearms across states lines... New Jersey, California, etc. As a C&R license holder in the state of Washington, I can have any firearm that qualifies as a C&R shipped directly to my licensed address. Whether or not it can be shipped directly to me from the seller is determined by the state laws in his/her state. Some states do require that a non licensed person must ship it through a licensed dealer. Said dealer will ship it directly to a C&R licensee after receiving a signed copy of your C&R license.

In regards to the ATF monitoring your acquistions and disposals, it does not happen. The BATF has no way of knowing how many transactions a C&R license has executed in any given time period. Unlike a Type-01 FFL, the BATF can not simply walk into your home and conduct a surprise audit of a Type-03 C&R licensee. They must first contact you, and then arrange for a visit with you at your scheduled time. In the 18+ years that I have been a licensed C&R holder, I have never been contacted by the BATF for the purpose of inspecting by records.

In regards to this statement...

I talked to a local guy and he was told by a ATF agent out of Minneapolis that more than 5 out going transfers a year he considers "In business" and would come down on him.

... that BATF agent is asking to be sued and fired. There is no policy concerning the number of transactions in a given time frame, and again, that loudmouth BATF agent has no way of determing how many transactions (shipments) an individual C&R license has executed without conducting a records audit. Ultimately, it would be up to a federal judge to decide "how many" transactions are "too many" and constitute "conducting a business".

Bert

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May 14, 2013
8:27 am
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94shorties said
It is my understanding that even when you close your C&R, your records are not turned in to the BATF and I have not heard of anyone with a C&R ever being inspected by them so, how would they know how many transactions you had? I know that the C&R does not give you the right to be in business of selling guns but, you should be able to upgrade by selling some to buy better ones.

Paul

This guy was in trouble before so he is monitored.

Bob

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May 14, 2013
7:45 pm
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Q: Can a licensed collector sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a nonlicensed resident of another State?

Yes. A licensed collector is specifically authorized to sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a nonlicensed resident of another State so long as 1) The purchaser meets with the licensee in person at the licensee’s premises to accomplish the transfer, sale, and delivery of the rifle or shotgun; and 2) The sale, delivery, andQ: Can a licensed collector sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a nonlicensed resident of another State?

Yes. A licensed collector is specifically authorized to sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a nonlicensed resident of another State so long as 1) The purchaser meets with the licensee in person at the licensee’s premises to accomplish the transfer, sale, and delivery of the rifle or shotgun; and 2) The sale, delivery, and receipt of the rifle or shotgun fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States.

[27 CFR 478.96 (c)(1)]
receipt of the rifle or shotgun fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States.

[27 CFR 478.96 (c)(1)]

May 15, 2013
1:59 pm
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I am going to attend the Denver Gun Show this weekend...and this thread is very timely. I have a couple of ??'s:

As the holder of a C&R FFL - I am assuming that all handguns (that meet the C&R criteria) can be "bought and sold" - across state lines... in person-to person transactions involving both private parties as well as dealers....without any legal ramifications. Correct?

Without the C&R FFL - it is my understanding that any "interstate commerce" invoving handguns is restricted to "antiques", or needs to have FFL involvement. Correct?

Any state-to-state restrictions for long guns.... when at a "nonlocal" gunshow? I am of the the belief that there are none.

A handgun built in 1962 - now meets the "50 year old" criteria for the C&R FFL - this obviously will include many guns that look quite "new" and more modern. Proof of age could be an issue....any suggestions?

Thank you in advance for the insight!

Mike H
Wisconsin

May 15, 2013
4:19 pm
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Ok...so I understand that if I buy an old rifle, let's say, from Joe in Colorado and send him a copy of my C&R, it is dependant on his State laws if he can ship it directly to me and not go through an FFL. Got it. Now another question that has always bothered me. I buy the gun from Joe and he ships it to me, either straight away or through his FFL....how do I know the gun is not hot. If an FFL holder ships a gun to me, do they check to see if it on some "stolen list" before shipping it? If there is no FFL holder involved except me and my C&R/FFL, is there a number I should be calling to check to see if the gun is hot?? How does that work if you know. Thanks, Peter

May 15, 2013
5:24 pm
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pday said
Ok...so I understand that if I buy an old rifle, let's say, from Joe in Colorado and send him a copy of my C&R, it is dependant on his State laws if he can ship it directly to me and not go through an FFL. Got it. Now another question that has always bothered me. I buy the gun from Joe and he ships it to me, either straight away or through his FFL....how do I know the gun is not hot. If an FFL holder ships a gun to me, do they check to see if it on some "stolen list" before shipping it? If there is no FFL holder involved except me and my C&R/FFL, is there a number I should be calling to check to see if the gun is hot?? How does that work if you know. Thanks, Peter

A dealer does not check a guns serial number to see if its stolen. All he does is enter in the info about the gun in his records and sends it out the door. You could do it yourself by getting the serial number and checking it with your local PD if they are willing to do it. I would think if you told the person your buying it from that your going to do that, they would probable never talk to you again.

Bob

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May 15, 2013
5:38 pm
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That was funny Bob...I have never purchased a gun from anybody that I thought I needed to check on, just wondering here. It seems like a lot of guns get passed around and nobody checks to see if they are stolen. When I got my C&R, I thought they would require it, but they do not. I also figured that when an FFL holder (non C&R) shipped to me, that he would check the serial # ...guess not. Peter

May 16, 2013
6:53 am
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I ask the question: With a C&R - can I legally travel from Wisconsin to a gun show in Colorado - and "buy and sell" Pre 1962 handguns?

How should such transactions be best handled - check ID, bill of sale?

Mike H

May 16, 2013
7:28 am
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Mike,

In answer to your question, yes, you can legally travel to and from Wisconsin, and buy or sell a C&R handgun while you are in Colorado using your C&R FFL.

Bert

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May 16, 2013
8:06 am
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Bert - Thank you for the consise answer.

Mike H

May 16, 2013
8:52 am
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pday said
That was funny Bob...I have never purchased a gun from anybody that I thought I needed to check on, just wondering here. It seems like a lot of guns get passed around and nobody checks to see if they are stolen. When I got my C&R, I thought they would require it, but they do not. I also figured that when an FFL holder (non C&R) shipped to me, that he would check the serial # ...guess not. Peter

I believe pawn shops have to check to see if they are stolen before reselling along with other items since stolen items are quit often sold at pawn shops

Bob

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May 16, 2013
5:50 pm
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Long Spur Hollow

Joined: 11 Jan 2011
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Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:23 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I ask the question: With a C&R - can I legally travel from Wisconsin to a gun show in Colorado - and "buy and sell" Pre 1962 handguns?

How should such transactions be best handled - check ID, bill of sale?

Mike H

Last edited by Long Spur Hollow on Thu May 16, 2013 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total

It would be a wise choice when travling with fire-arms, crossing state
lines to have such guns out of reach,unloaded and in a locked compatment.

May 17, 2013
12:09 am
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I've bought many guns over the years and never tried to find out if they were stolen. Turned out three were in fact stolen, but I didn't find out until much later. By the time I did, all three were long gone - two sold, and one traded for a nice Winchester. Unless stolen guns are reported to authorities, and you can access a database, how would you know?

May 17, 2013
3:48 am
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I agree with oakridge...this is a bit nuts if you ask me. There should be a data base of stolen guns set up on the net (by the US Gov't) under Manufacturer, model, serial # etc so that seller and buyer can log on and check to see if something is stolen, BEFORE it is purchased. To not have such a base is crazy to me. I should not have to mess around calling my local Sheriff or PD, and wasting their time with this. I'm sure they have way more important things to do than search out a serial # for me. I will call the Sheriff and see if a list is available online somewhere. I will post again when I find out. Peter

May 17, 2013
9:38 am
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Ok . . all very interesting. Thanks to all for the good questions . . and for the answers. I've wondered . . . .

If you get a C&R license . . . do you have to list the firearms you already have in your C&R bookkeeping ? or just the ones that you acquire or sell via the C& R license ?

I'd considered getting a C&R . . . and decided not to do so . . partly because I'm in California 🙁 no choice about that presently . . . partly because almost everything I purchase is "antique". . . . and the friend that owns this ranch were I'm located is an FFL holder.

May 17, 2013
1:47 pm
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Wolfgang,

You only have to list any eligible firearms that you purchase using your C&R FFL, or any that you dispose of (sell) using your C&R FFL.

Example; I have a Model 1894 Rifle that I have owned for 20+ years (before having a C&R FFL), which is not entered in my C&R book. I decide to sell it to somebody in a Texas and use my C&R FFL to ship it from Washington to Texas, I must enter it in my C&R book.

Example (2): I have the same Model 1894 Rifle, again not entered in my C&R book. I take it to my local gun show, and sell it to a resident of my state in a face to face sale. I do not have to enter in it in my C&R book.

Bert

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