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Blue Book of Gun Values--reality vs theory
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May 19, 2013 - 3:47 am
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In your experience, how do the Blue Book of Gun Values stack up in reality, vs the prices listed. Prices seem a little high in the book, I think, until you start getting in the 95% range–then the values seem low relative to what is out there at gun shows. I am talking about pre-1898 and slightly thereafter Winchester 1886’s, 1892’s, and 1894’s.

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May 19, 2013 - 4:22 am
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Hello,

The Blue Book is not a good reference guide for Winchester valuations. It is a VERY general book that does not take into account the many variations found on these firearms and only offers a simplistic view of the potential value. The "Red Bok", available via Bert Hartman here on the forum is an exceedingly better guide for you to use.

Michael

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Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation

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May 19, 2013 - 8:08 pm
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Like many price guides, the operative word is "guide". It would be difficult for it to be otherwise in any context. There are simply too many variables to offer hard and fast pricing. Already suggested above is the quandary of what might be called the ‘sub-models’ and variations thereof. The older Winchesters offer an excellent example of that situation. Then also there is the question of condition. There, the guide valuation is no better than the opinion of the person evaluating the gun. It often requires considerable experience to evaluate condition. Then there is also the projection of making any repairs or adjustments to bring the piece back within desired parameters of functionality/originality. I often disdain the percentage ratings except perhaps on much newer firearms than most collectible Winchesters (or Colts, or Smith & Wessons, etc.).
If there is inherent error within the framework of price guides, perhaps it is greatest concerning true vintage collectible guns. A gun which is five years old simply does not fit in the same condition category with one that is even fifty years old, much less one hundred. By comparison with contemporary models, vintage guns are simply too susceptible to being amateurishly regarded within the same percentage/valuation framework.
For instance, how is "patina" accounted for and graded in the Blue Book? The photo illustrations adjacent to the Blue Book preface tacitly contribute to the suggestion of a singular absolute scale. The percentage evaluations do not suggest any cautionary adjustment based on realities of aging. Perhaps such guides cannot reasonably be expected to account for such without resulting in a gargantuan and unwieldy work. Yet it introduces an important and necessary factor with the singular standard which may tend to be more misleading than not.
Next, how about the "originality’ factor? Really an almost exponential point as other conductibility factors increase. How should a guide deal with that situation? It simply cannot, but at least does not portend to address it as in the ‘condition’ factor.
The result is that such guides are often at best a very generalized rule of thumb for the more collectible weapons. Certainly better than nothing, but perhaps necessarily glossing over almost too many pitfalls for the unwary purchasers and sellers. (Yet as an aside, the sellers nearly always do have a presumptive advantage. They can withhold marketing their wares pending a full investigation. The buyer(s) are often lack this luxury in making a their commitment.)
Next perhaps are regional pricing-valuation differences. One might argue that these have been blurred by the Internet marketplace. But I believe there remain significant differences. I also believe that the prominent Internet gun sale services only superficially affect the actual ‘real world’ market. They represent a small percentage of actual transactions and they are also presumptively distorted by a percentage of both ‘deep pockets’ and ‘imprudent – have to have it’ buyers.
Gun shop pricing also varies across the board, with the trend at least in the last decade to adopt more of the corporate structure pricing. Less based on knowledgeable valuations rather than simply overpricing with a marketing plan of exposing items for sale and passively fostering ‘drift down’ of overpriced items to a ‘floor’ or sale point.
Such is also particularly spurred by exorbitant consignment fees of one third to half asking price; such which tends to prompt unrealistic seller pricing.
Among too many of us, there is also the latent tendency, if unchecked, to adopt “offered prices” as actual resulting market values. We all know better, but the tendency remains.
Exorbitant pricing seems to be highest in the more firearm-regulated states where most, if not all, all transfers are required to be through licensed dealers. Thus offering a sad state sponsored distortion of ‘pricing to market’!
Thus are some of the dynamics of pricing which variables no blue book could possibly be expected to competently account in valuations.
There is an old line attributed to various sources: "Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools." So it is with gun pricing.
Yet in all the gun valuation tribulations there is light! Within the joys of the Internet, are the specialized and functional boards of experts willing to share their time and expertise. WinchesterColllector.org is one, where an accumulation of expertise can provide more than simple generalizations. With sufficient quality ‘client’ input, realistic and hard valuations can result. Nothing is perfect, but perhaps forums such as these are about as close as may be obtained!

And so pardon me for exhibiting the truth of accusations concerning my long winded, highly opinionated and tightly vectored… take…

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May 20, 2013 - 9:38 am
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The BBGV has been good to me in more ways than one. I got interested in buying old guns about 20 years ago at about age 50. A late start that I have regretted ever since, because that and the things that go with it has given me great enjoyment right to this moment. Without the BBGV and the Standard Catalog of Firearms, I would not have many of the guns that I own today.

Today, we have the much improved RED BOOK of Winchester Values and by the looks of things it’s going to have a much brighter future in time among like fans. I see these books as important learning tools to be used in the buying, collecting, and selling of firearms.

It was my experience with firearms at an early age that helped me to become an expert marksman, so I believe that experience with these type guides will go a long way toward helping one to become an expert in the trading of firearms, or those of a specific type, to one degree or another should they have such an aim.

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May 21, 2013 - 7:01 pm
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Complicated topic in my opinion. I see the Blue Book around at the gun shows a lot and on the kitchen tables of guys who have collected Winchesters for fifty-sixty years. The Red Book has a ton of information in it beyond valuing. One thing either book may not account for is what a particular gun’s value is to you.

Are you in this only to buy low and sell high and that’s the top priority? Are you in this only to find the certain guns you like and plan to keep for good? Or maybe it is a combination of both. Either focus can obviously determine the price paid for any particular gun.

I want to find an 80-90% original condition (sorry for percentages iskra) Model 1895 Standard Sporting Rifle in .30 Army someday. I missed one by about 200’ and 30 minutes a couple of months ago, in the exact situation I wanted to buy one in from a particular seller and a fair price. I might have even “over-paid”. Meanwhile I have seen really nice model 1892 and 1894 carbines in 44-40 and 38-55 for sale lately that I just have no interest in at all. This brings it back to: what a particular gun’s value is to you.

Another example of this is the occasional posting here of an auction where the price paid for a particular gun seems to be unbelievable.

A friend told me a story about getting a Model 1892 in .32-20 once with a bunch of other stuff. Frankly, it was beat up, a “dog”, a “grey rat”…barely functioning with some obvious repairs. My friend was honestly concerned about the condition of the bore and action. He took it back in the woods and shot it a few times and everything miraculously functioned OK. He took it to a show and put it on his table. A guy comes up and says he really wants a .32-20. Well my friend has this one but explains the gun and all its low points. He explains that it really needs to be checked out by a competent gunsmith if it going to be used. Doesn’t matter to this guy… he really wants a .32-20. He buys it, full price and happy as hell. My friend sees the buyer some time later and asks him about that .32-20. He’s still excited about it and says:”It’s the best gun in my collection!” Laugh

Regards

Brad Dunbar

http://1895book.com/

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May 22, 2013 - 9:56 am
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Writing an up-to-date price guide obviously requires a lot of research into current gun sales, but also requires some assumptions. That’s why the author needs to be very knowledgeable on the subject. I’m sure it’s hard to find enough current sales of every model and condition of Winchesters to come up with an average value on each. Therefore, adjustments have to be made, similar to those made in real estate appraisals. And, you would have to consider abberations. If you could find enough sales of a particular model in the same condition, you could throw out abnormally high or low sales and average the middle ones. But, I doubt that’s often possible. Values, then, depend on the author’s knowledge of the subject and ability to adjust for condition, rarity, etc. Even then, the resulting values are not set in stone. It’s a"guide".

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