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86-33 Winchester Barrel
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March 11, 2022 - 5:55 am
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I have on hand a barrel for the 1886 model.  See attached pictures.  It is dated 1951 and resembles a model 70 Winchester barrel regarding the front ramp, it takes a hood and has a low angled ramp.  I remember hearing that Winchester used to rebarrel and reproof 1886 model guns very late, even into the mid-fifties.  According to what I heard, Winchester would rebarrel even black powder era guns and reproof them yet only for the 33 WCF.

1) I would welcome any informed comments!

2) Does anyone have a documented factory documented gun with a rebarrel with a barrel like this?

3) Were these barrels sold to gunsmiths?

4) What does the group make of the barrel markings and proof marks?

5) How late did this rebarreling occur?70A96CAE-6735-4744-B712-0CB4976520C9.jpegImage Enlarger3FB247AD-A710-475D-9B6D-FA74AA13BD57.jpegImage EnlargerE331DC7B-82A6-4DAA-8617-7FD1FFF4CC39.jpegImage EnlargerCB0BB42D-217F-4AAC-A1A3-7906DCDB37B7.jpegImage Enlarger

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March 11, 2022 - 2:34 pm
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I think this barrel was sold mail order to a gunsmith or private individual. Factory installed barrels would just have the WP proof on top of the barrel. Yours looks to have a P in a circle as well. Pretty sure the P means it was sold mail order. Others more knowledgeable may correct me.

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March 11, 2022 - 7:04 pm
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Thanks, Mike!  Does anyone know when the sale of parts barrels ended?  
I assume concurrently with the sale of parts barrels that Win. would also install them, is that a right assumption?

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March 12, 2022 - 2:46 am
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No, mail order barrels were installed by whoever purchased them. I think that was the reason for the circle P proof mark. No liabilty was incurred by Wichester for barrels installed by a third party. At least that is the way I would do it anyway. I have a 1901 production 1892 rifle that has a 1931 marked barrel on it. Pretty sure it was returned to Winchester as the whole front end; barrel. forend, mag tube. mag hanger, forend cap and mag plug are all newer issue. No P in a circle on barrel just standard WP factory proof.

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March 12, 2022 - 5:19 am
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Interesting!  I’m having trouble wrapping my head around such Winchester factory ‘accommodation’.  Talk about ‘other era’ as extending to postwar era!  I also can’t quite figure the interest in such a product rifle with the Model 70 barrel and ramp style!  Would that adaptation yet be “collectible” or more toward relegated to “shooter”.  I suppose the flat presumably under barrel-breach as original barrel nomenclature removed!  Left shaking my head but appears a whole new dimension of Winchester willingness to make an old rifle viable.  Yet as postwar in .33 Win chambering not quite to see such emerged picture as particularly viable.  When was .33 Win ammo discontinued?

Thanks for an interesting Thread!

Best!

John

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March 12, 2022 - 6:34 am
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Iskra, thanks for your comments!  I too am mostly intrigued in how late such rebarreling was done, in this case we see a barrel year stamped for a model introduced 65 years earlier.  I assume Winchester must have offered forend wood in the same period (circa 1951) as most 1886 guns were not made with lightweight round barrels.

As I mentioned in my first post, the story I heard was Winchester would rebarrel any 1886 with a 33 WCF barrel regardless of originally made era into the 50’s.  Can anyone confirm or refute that?

I still would love to see pictures of a factory documented early made and late rebarreled gun.

As to this particular barrel being a sold for parts barrel, thanks, Mike for pointing out the circle P mark, I did not know that!  What I would still wonder about is:  was Winchester installing the barrels they were selling in the same time frame, without the circle P?  Does anyone have an invoice showing such work done?  I would also welcome more comments as to the advent and period of use of the circle P mark.

As to collector interest and pricing, others could speak in a more informed way than myself.  That said, I would be very interested in a hypothetical gun made in the 1890’s with a factory rebarrel to 33 WCF done in 1951. 

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March 12, 2022 - 9:41 pm
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 All most interesting.Thanks to all for posting.Smile

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April 10, 2022 - 2:39 am
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In an analogous situation compared to these “86-33” barrels, I came across an article in an old WACA magazine that showed a factory 219 Zipper barrel on a High Wall.  The article described about 200 219 Zipper barrels being made for the High Wall Winchester after production for that model had ended.  Does anyone happen to own one of those they could share pictures of?

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April 10, 2022 - 1:01 pm
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JC said
In an analogous situation compared to these “86-33” barrels, I came across an article in an old WACA magazine that showed a factory 219 Zipper barrel on a High Wall.  The article described about 200 219 Zipper barrels being made for the High Wall Winchester after production for that model had ended.  Does anyone happen to own one of those they could share pictures of?  

I never knew that.  Very interesting.   I have seen a few Winchester Single-Shot rifles with Winchester .219 Zipper barrels offered for sale.  I suppose many of these were installed by outside gunsmiths.  I wonder how many were sent back to Winchester to have the .219 barrels installed?  And if so, would they go back to the original factory ledger entry and add a return and repair notation?

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April 10, 2022 - 1:06 pm
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This thread has given me pause to think about those very few Model 71’s that Winchester made in .33 WCF.  I suspect they all had ramp front sights.  

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April 10, 2022 - 3:53 pm
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steve004 said

I never knew that.  Very interesting.   I have seen a few Winchester Single-Shot rifles with Winchester .219 Zipper barrels offered for sale.  I suppose many of these were installed by outside gunsmiths.  I wonder how many were sent back to Winchester to have the .219 barrels installed?  And if so, would they go back to the original factory ledger entry and add a return and repair notation?  

To the best of my knowledge (research in the warehouse ledger records), there were no Single Shots sent back to Winchester in the late 1930s for a new barrel in 219 Zipper.  Additionally, the original warehouse ledger books for the Single Shot were “retired” and sent to the Winchester Museum in New Haven in the 1920s.

Over the past 40+ years, I have encountered just (2) high-wall Single Shot rifles with a Winchester made 219 Zipper barrel on them, and both of them had the Mail Order (P) proof mark on them.

Bert

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High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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April 10, 2022 - 3:56 pm
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steve004 said
This thread has given me pause to think about those very few Model 71’s that Winchester made in .33 WCF.  I suspect they all had ramp front sights.    

Steve,

The 33 WCF barrels on the Model 71 are externally identical to the 348 WCF barrels.  Currently, I have (4) of them documented in the survey.

Bert

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April 10, 2022 - 6:04 pm
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Bert H. said

To the best of my knowledge (research in the warehouse ledger records), there were no Single Shots sent back to Winchester in the late 1930s for a new barrel in 219 Zipper.  Additionally, the original warehouse ledger books for the Single Shot were “retired” and sent to the Winchester Museum in New Haven in the 1920s.

Over the past 40+ years, I have encountered just (2) high-wall Single Shot rifles with a Winchester made 219 Zipper barrel on them, and both of them had the Mail Order (P) proof mark on them.

Bert  

I recall when Larry Orr had this one several years back.  I know Larry has often set up at the Cody show so maybe this is one you have seen?

Win M1885 Hi-wall, #54XXX, 30” rd #3 bbl, thick wall rec set trigger, .219 zipper cal, this gun was returned to factory in 1937 (so marked) for new bbl & refinish, custom wooded w/fancy wd, 97% overall w/12x unerth scope, this gun was owned and shot by Ed Hibbard Duluth, MN & comes w/newspaper articles dated 12-29-1940 w/several pictures and details of how he started shooting and how much he shot a rare gun in ths cal and all done by Win, except wd. ………………………… $4995

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April 10, 2022 - 8:31 pm
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steve004 said

I recall when Larry Orr had this one several years back.  I know Larry has often set up at the Cody show so maybe this is one you have seen?

Win M1885 Hi-wall, #54XXX, 30” rd #3 bbl, thick wall rec set trigger, .219 zipper cal, this gun was returned to factory in 1937 (so marked) for new bbl & refinish, custom wooded w/fancy wd, 97% overall w/12x unerth scope, this gun was owned and shot by Ed Hibbard Duluth, MN & comes w/newspaper articles dated 12-29-1940 w/several pictures and details of how he started shooting and how much he shot a rare gun in ths cal and all done by Win, except wd. ………………………… $4995  

It is not one of the two rifles that I have seen… but I sure would like to see it now though.

Bert

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High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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April 13, 2022 - 5:28 am
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Can anyone find the WACA magazine article I mentioned about the 219 Zipper High Walls and link to it?  I’ve tried searching and browsing the articles but can’t seem to find it again.  
Does anyone know of any other similar situations for other model Winchesters, of them making and installing barrels for discontinued model guns such as these 86-33 1886 barrels and the 219 Zipper Single Shot barrels? 

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April 13, 2022 - 5:45 am
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Several years before Winchester began making replacement barrels in 219 Zipper for the Single Shot, they made a fair number of 22 Hornet barrels. The attached picture is a scanned copy of the original factory blue print drawing for the 22 Hornet barrel.

Bert

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