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June 19, 2023 - 12:13 am
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Chuck said

TR said

Chuck said

I always use toilet paper as a filler.  Not compressed but it ensures all the powder is next to the primer.

  

 Chuck,

 Toilet paper is colorful in the dark but corn meal smells better. T/R

  

Even in daylight I usually get a small piece on fire out of the barrel.

  

That can get pretty exciting on a range in very dry conditions especially if you’ve been firing BP loads in large caliber BP cartridge guns or muzzle loaders. 

 

Mike

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June 19, 2023 - 5:18 pm
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Mike, it isn’t that bad and probably no worse than what a black powder load spews out.   I just don’t want my smokeless loads to flash across the top of the powder.  Look it up.  Guns have been ruined when this happens.  Besides, I want consistent ignition.

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June 19, 2023 - 8:17 pm
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Chuck said
Mike, it isn’t that bad and probably no worse than what a black powder load spews out.   I just don’t want my smokeless loads to flash across the top of the powder.  Look it up.  Guns have been ruined when this happens.  Besides, I want consistent ignition.

  

This doesn’t seem to be an issue with 5744.

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June 19, 2023 - 8:28 pm
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It isn’t an issue until it is.  I am not taking chances.  I use 5744 too.  It does have a greater fill rate.

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June 20, 2023 - 1:14 am
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Chuck said
Mike, it isn’t that bad and probably no worse than what a black powder load spews out.   I just don’t want my smokeless loads to flash across the top of the powder.  Look it up.  Guns have been ruined when this happens.  Besides, I want consistent ignition.

  

I’m familiar with this phenomenon, I’ve also read about barrels ruined by filler forming a barrel obstruction. Flashover is very difficult to duplicate under controlled conditions and filler resulting in an obstruction is only a little easier. OTOH I use wads or patches in muzzle loaders and wads in certain BP cartridges. What makes them safer than filler? I agree with the need for consistent ignition and many experienced handloaders like you have good results with filler, some have been doing it for decades. Some powders are apparently not position sensitive but I still try to find a load that fills the case as much as possible and puts powder up against the primer.

One of the joys of shooting frontstuffers is having patches catch the vegetation and unburned powder on fire. At least one indoor range has been destroyed by shooters using loads that resulted in excessive unburned powder. 
I like 5744, one problem is it works so well in so many of the cartridges I load that I might as sell most of the other rifle powders in my powder magazine. Other problem is that it fouls the bore with a black tar-like substance that takes awhile to scrub out. Maybe that’s why I like BP.

Y’all are getting me excited about loading up some rifle ammo! I’ve been shooting my old .22’s, modern shotguns and handguns too much recently. 

 

Mike

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June 20, 2023 - 12:48 pm
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I reload both 45-70 and 45-90 in smokeless and black powder I have Sharps in both calibers and have a Marlin 1895 in 45-90 and an 86 in 45-70. I primarily use Starline that I annealed and like a few others I use 5744 in both and never had a problem. In the Marlin 45-90 it was made in 1896 and when I started trying smokeless I used 45-70 data with 350 grain lead bullet. Then once I had a few shots out to see ho they were I bumped up the load from there. In black powder I had 75 grains of 2f Goex compressed with a .02″ veggie wad with room for a grease cookie and another wad using the same bullet SPG lube. I would have to check my data but that load was good out to 100 yards off sandbags and pretty mild. If I remember right it chronograph around 1300+fps. The lube cookie helped keep the fouling soft and when finished I put a a jacketed smokeless round through it worked good. Clean up on the 1895 was easy and I have put 50 rounds out in a session without much hurt. The smokeless at least for me hurt more.

Rob

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June 20, 2023 - 9:20 pm
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When you chronographed your loads what was the ES?

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June 20, 2023 - 9:44 pm
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It was 4 shooting through the chronograph 15 feet from the muzzle in a 5 shot group

Rob

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June 20, 2023 - 10:05 pm
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Robert Drummond Jr said
It was 4 shooting through the chronograph 15 feet from the muzzle in a 5 shot group

Rob

  

That is better than most pros can do with modern calibers.  That would give you SD’s of less than 1.  I have worked my butt off just to get my ES consistently in the mid teens.

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July 9, 2023 - 3:46 am
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mrcvs said

oldcrankyyankee said

mrcvs said

oldcrankyyankee said

Drooling! Im going to clean up that slobber for a month. How many of those are out there. I knew I should have bid more.  

I don’t know, that’s serious money for a rifle with considerable wear and refinished wood.

  

True about the cost. also wont letter,  bet we see this one again in the futureConfused

  

I agree about the letter part.  I prefer lettered Winchesters.  Sometimes you decide to buy one with several features because it has rarity and condition, even if it is outside of the letterable range, because it’s compelling.  This one would be compelling if the cost reflected the condition relative to what it is.  Typical of Gunbroker, the final price exceeded considerably true value once one accounts for wear and refinished wood.

  

I struggled with bidding on this one at this price, considering that the Cody Museum did not have records for this rifle.  I also prefer and only own, prior to this rifle, only lettered Winchesters. The configuration and in part, the condition, are what compelled me to bid on this unlettered rifle. Acknowledge the refinished stock, and the wear.  I have been on the hunt for a 45-90 with a Nickel Steel barrel for about three years. I use Proxibid for access to many of the auction houses.  I have bought from Morphy and Amoskeag to name a few. I have lost quite a few auctions as I hit that spot, that comfort zone of where I feel that the value is on a specific rifle.  It must be that I am living in the past on values, because I continue to see the values go out of the range of what I am willing to pay.  This one, even without a letter, even with the wear, even with the refinished stock, spoke to me. In the days leading up to the auction, I researched RIA auctions and had found a similar ELW 45-90, but without the features this one had that sold in 2015 for $ 6,900 plus the BP.  Winchester 1886 Rifle 45-90 | Rock Island Auction.  Based on the research, I rolled the dice on this one.  Will probably hold on to this one for a few years.  My gunsmith who is 73, and got me hooked on the 1886”s.  I usually get his input prior to bidding on any 1886.  He knows them well and has owned several over the years. I would have preferred the rifle to be lettered, but the configuration of this one, and from what it looks like, aside from the refinished stock, and possibly the sling swivels, this one hit the marks enough to compell me to buy.  Had my heart racing the entire auction. At least no buyers premium on this one!

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July 9, 2023 - 12:35 pm
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[email protected] said

mrcvs said

oldcrankyyankee said

mrcvs said

oldcrankyyankee said

Drooling! Im going to clean up that slobber for a month. How many of those are out there. I knew I should have bid more.  

I don’t know, that’s serious money for a rifle with considerable wear and refinished wood.

  

True about the cost. also wont letter,  bet we see this one again in the futureConfused

  

I agree about the letter part.  I prefer lettered Winchesters.  Sometimes you decide to buy one with several features because it has rarity and condition, even if it is outside of the letterable range, because it’s compelling.  This one would be compelling if the cost reflected the condition relative to what it is.  Typical of Gunbroker, the final price exceeded considerably true value once one accounts for wear and refinished wood.

  

I struggled with bidding on this one at this price, considering that the Cody Museum did not have records for this rifle.  I also prefer and only own, prior to this rifle, only lettered Winchesters. The configuration and in part, the condition, are what compelled me to bid on this unlettered rifle. Acknowledge the refinished stock, and the wear.  I have been on the hunt for a 45-90 with a Nickel Steel barrel for about three years. I use Proxibid for access to many of the auction houses.  I have bought from Morphy and Amoskeag to name a few. I have lost quite a few auctions as I hit that spot, that comfort zone of where I feel that the value is on a specific rifle.  It must be that I am living in the past on values, because I continue to see the values go out of the range of what I am willing to pay.  This one, even without a letter, even with the wear, even with the refinished stock, spoke to me. In the days leading up to the auction, I researched RIA auctions and had found a similar ELW 45-90, but without the features this one had that sold in 2015 for $ 6,900 plus the BP.  Winchester 1886 Rifle 45-90 | Rock Island Auction.  Based on the research, I rolled the dice on this one.  Will probably hold on to this one for a few years.  My gunsmith who is 73, and got me hooked on the 1886”s.  I usually get his input prior to bidding on any 1886.  He knows them well and has owned several over the years. I would have preferred the rifle to be lettered, but the configuration of this one, and from what it looks like, aside from the refinished stock, and possibly the sling swivels, this one hit the marks enough to compell me to buy.  Had my heart racing the entire auction. At least no buyers premium on this one!

  

This rifle spoke to me and your thoughts describe my thoughts on the rifle as well – and as I mentioned – I was tempted.  You raise a good point – on gunbroker there’s no buyer’s premium.  Had this been an RIA auction, and you were bidding through Proxibid, a couple thousand dollars would have been added to the final price.

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July 10, 2023 - 2:11 am
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mrcvs said

oldcrankyyankee said

mrcvs said

oldcrankyyankee said

Drooling! Im going to clean up that slobber for a month. How many of those are out there. I knew I should have bid more.  

I don’t know, that’s serious money for a rifle with considerable wear and refinished wood.

  

True about the cost. also wont letter,  bet we see this one again in the futureConfused

  

I agree about the letter part.  I prefer lettered Winchesters.  Sometimes you decide to buy one with several features because it has rarity and condition, even if it is outside of the letterable range, because it’s compelling.  This one would be compelling if the cost reflected the condition relative to what it is.  Typical of Gunbroker, the final price exceeded considerably true value once one accounts for wear and refinished wood.

  

This is the first Winchester I have purchased without a letter.  I agree completely with both statements about the letter, and about the several features. I had two reference points for value through RIA.  Special Order Winchester Model 1886 Lightweight Takedown Rifle | Rock Island Auction.Winchester 1886 Rifle 45-90 | Rock Island Auction. While both of these comps had letters, neither had the “features” this one does.  I just hope I don’t go down the path of “A fool and his money are soon parted!….

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July 10, 2023 - 7:46 am
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[email protected] said

mrcvs said

oldcrankyyankee said

mrcvs said

oldcrankyyankee said

Drooling! Im going to clean up that slobber for a month. How many of those are out there. I knew I should have bid more.  

I don’t know, that’s serious money for a rifle with considerable wear and refinished wood.

  

True about the cost. also wont letter,  bet we see this one again in the futureConfused

  

I agree about the letter part.  I prefer lettered Winchesters.  Sometimes you decide to buy one with several features because it has rarity and condition, even if it is outside of the letterable range, because it’s compelling.  This one would be compelling if the cost reflected the condition relative to what it is.  Typical of Gunbroker, the final price exceeded considerably true value once one accounts for wear and refinished wood.

  

This is the first Winchester I have purchased without a letter.  I agree completely with both statements about the letter, and about the several features. I had two reference points for value through RIA.  Special Order Winchester Model 1886 Lightweight Takedown Rifle | Rock Island Auction.Winchester 1886 Rifle 45-90 | Rock Island Auction. While both of these comps had letters, neither had the “features” this one does.  I just hope I don’t go down the path of “A fool and his money are soon parted!…. 

Well, the first example sold for $6900 in 2015.  It is a pistol grip rifle, checkered, but not a takedown.

The second example sold earlier this year for  $9988.  It’s a takedown but lacks a pistol grip.  The condition of this one is significantly better than yours.

I think we concluded in the first thread about yours that the wood was lightly sanded and refinished.  But that was the conclusion based on auction photographs.  Looking at your photographs, it’s hard to tell for sure.  The wood does remain proud on yours.  Both RIA are described as having been lightly sanded, and yours presumably is as well, but maybe not.

You did pay certainly at the upper end for your rifle.  But other examples, like those you posted, demonstrate that the valuation on these is certainly in the upper 4 figure range these days.  Sometimes, if something unusual comes along, you have to pay dearly for it.  If you overpaid for it, it probably was only by 10% or certainly not by as much as 20%.  In todays market, that could not take long to recover, and if a few devoted individuals want this rifle for its uniqueness, they might be willing to pay the same as what you paid for it in short order.

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July 10, 2023 - 12:55 pm
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 If I as a collector want something, I buy it even if I think I paid to much. As long as I know what I bought, I’m happy. T/R

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July 10, 2023 - 2:01 pm
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TR said
 If I as a collector want something, I buy it even if I think I paid to much. As long as I know what I bought, I’m happy. T/R

  

Interesting. I buy most of my guns at RIA because I live close and can visibly check the bore condition. I won’t buy a gun with a bad or less than perfect bore. Internet sellers don’t seem to be able (or willing) to give an accurate bore assessment.

 I always figure that if I win a gun I have paid 1 bid too much for it as nobody else was willing to pay the price I paid. I don’t worry about it much, if I keep a gun 5 to 10 years I have always made far more selling it than I did buying it.

 As an example, I bought a Colt new Service target in 45ACP made in 1929 5 or 6 years ago for $1200 that I thought I paid too much for and sold it a few months ago for $3000. It all works out in the end.

My wife freaks about how much I have been spending on Winchesters and Marlin lever guns. I always have to remind her how much money I have made in the past selling parts of my collection to finance new parts of my collection. Beats paying for new sidewalks etc……Wink

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July 12, 2023 - 2:47 am
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TR said
 If I as a collector want something, I buy it even if I think I paid to much. As long as I know what I bought, I’m happy. T/R

  

Yes sir! If it’s something I truly want and have spent awhile looking for it I will sometimes pay more than someone who’s just looking for something to sell or dabble with for awhile. We have no guarantees that we’ll ever find another one, I wear a size 12 steel toe boot and kicking myself is rather unpleasant. If it has pretty wood all bets are off!

 

Mike

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