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I stumbled onto a .405 wcf model 70 recently. Looks to be a 75%+ gun and is a caliber I am not able to find very much details on. Would anyone be willing to chime in pertaining to any enhanced information? I would not mind trying to buy as it looks nice.
thanks
November 2, 2009
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Are you sure of the caliber? The model 70 was not available in .405 WCF.
November 5, 2014
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Hi farmerrick-
The 405 WCF was not a cataloged chambering in the pre-64 M70. It is most famous in the M1895 lever action, probably b/c Teddy Roosevelt’s favorite lion gun was in that caliber.
It has been stated that the factory did produce one or two M70s in 405 WCF, which were retained in (and eventually emerged from) the R&D vault. Whether that information is accurate is something to which I cannot attest, but the M70 can be adapted to handle rimmed cartridges, much like the M54, which was cataloged for several years in 30 WCF.
That said, quite a few M70s (and even M54s) in 405 WCF have miraculously appeared on the market over the past few years. There is someone I know in PA who claims to have owned five or six of them, as well as M54s so chambered. Usually these guns are advertised as “rare uncataloged chamerings” and priced at about $20K. They are almost certainly fakes…
As a collector, these days I would not go near a Pre-64 M70 in an “uncataloged chambering” due to a profusion of fakes. If, by chance, there were bona fide provenance it would be another matter, but paper can also be faked so caveat emptor. If I just wanted a really “cool” M70 to play with/shoot, and if the gun were priced as a “reproduction” or “custom conversion” (meaning not more than a couple thousand dollars), then why not??? OTOH there aren’t many African lions (or large bears) roaming my neck of the woods. 
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
OK thanks. It is a pre war, un drilled receiver, correct style bolt, Definitely correctly (appearing) barrel with correct integrated sight bosses, as well as correct metal butt pad. The barrel must have been changed/manufactured.
November 5, 2014
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Hi Farmerrick-
I have seen/handled a couple of these myself. Most I’ve seen (in person or pictures) are quite realistic looking, although on some the “405” is stamped with individual number dies and the “W.C.F.” with a single die. Seemed odd to me given that Winchester did have “405 W.C.F.” dies stampes from marking the M1895 barrels.
The barrels I’ve seen have a flat (not coned) breech, like the M54 30 WCF barrels, so they were not made from a rebored existing factory barrel (made from scratch). Naturally there were corresponding modifications to the bolt face to accommodate the large diameter rimmed 405 WCF case. I never got to cycle ammunition through one, so I don’t know if they would feed/fire/extract properly or not.
I’m just very suspicious that these rifles are not factory original…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
I notice that too, making me skeptical. I compare the 405 wcf stamp on model 95 and is much different looking than the “same” stamp on the model 70. The 4 is slightly mis aligned I bet they are looking to cut a fat hog on some “ultra rare” stuff. THanks I was really scratching my head.
Well there were 5 model 70s that sold, I was unsure but they brought money, and to onsite bidders.
a 303 savage STD weight Sn 129296 $5700.00 buyers premium not included
Markings did not look to be counterfeit, and the condition was very good.
a 405 WCF CARBINE sn 39553 $12000.00 buyers premium not included
This rifle looked to have a questionable looking stamp for caliber. I felt it had individual stamps and not a die as well as the 4 looked much different than the 4 character on model 95 rifles. I was not too keen on the value without some history of the rifle. This rifle was in high condition and had a correct stock and butt plate.
A 300 h&h magnum Carbine sn 44763 $5250.00 buyers premium not included
This rifle was in very good to excellent condition and I felt looked to be very authentic, and would be quite rare.
A 22 hipower carbine sn 107439 $6200.00 buyers premium not included
This rifle definitely had the stamp for the caliber done individually, as the 2 was misaligned with the other 2 and the p was slightly higher and crooked. Might have been an indication of authenticity or counterfeit. no telling. a valuable rifle in high grade condition if original. The dash after model 70 almost runs right into the first 2 making me more suspicious as the 2 is incorrect shape (possibly from not having a die?) and appears to be WAYY too close to the dash.
A 250-3000 savage carbine SN 83354 $6500.00 buyers premium not included.
This one was also a high condition rifle, seemed correct no obvious discrepancy however the front sight and muzzle looked to be machined different and just seemed slightly out of scale The S in the lettering looked sort of BIG compared to my 257 roberts and 220 swifts otherwise looked OK.
Thanks for the input and hopefully some folks got some nice guns today.
November 5, 2014
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FWIW… Here is a clip from my M70 survey. S/N 44763, now a 300 MAGNUM Carbine, was recorded as a 300 MAGNUM Standard Rifle sold on GB. Of course, I could have recorded the GB serial number incorrectly, so this is not “evidence” that the subject rifle is a fraud, but unless I made a mistake it’s a Standard rifle with a cut down barrel…
I am very suspicious of “Carbines” in 300 MAGNUM and 220 SWIFT, since anyone with the skill to cut/crown the barrel, recreate/relocate the ramp, and reblue with a Winchester-like finish can make one… Same for “short barrel” (20-inch or 22-inch) 375 MAGNUMs with C-1 contour barrels. Every marking on the gun will be right, b/c it is a factory barrel… Just cut down…
No prior record in the survey of the other serial numbers. But if one “ultra rare” M70 in an auction is false, I have to wonder whether other “ultra rare” M70s in the same auction came from the same questionable consignor…
Just my take…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
I see and carbines would be nothing more than a cut down rifle and marketed as “rare custom carbine” only to find out later that they were counterfeit… Saddens me that people take a collectors item never to be offered for sale new again and make it into nothing more than fiscal gain. Almost makes me want to stop collecting.
April 15, 2005
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[email protected] said
Saddens me that people take a collectors item never to be offered for sale new again and make it into nothing more than fiscal gain. Almost makes me want to stop collecting.
Unfortunately, for as long as there are collectors that are willing to pay big $$$$ for rare and unusual Winchesters, there will be crooks that build fake guns to scam them and make a big profit. I have observed such illicit activity for as long as I have been collecting… 45+ years now. Your best defense is to learn as much as possible about the specific models you like or collect, and when in doubt, seek assistance from unbiased experts and other collectors. To that end, this website and forum members are an excellent place to do that.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
August 27, 2014
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By any chance was the auction in PA?
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
I do not know where the auction was. I get notifications as I am a dealer and buy/sell/trade (or atleast attempt to) lots of guns. I have a certain specific evaluation I sort of go/no go on how I feel about the merchandise. I have attained many many units for $hundreds at auction and merely marketed them correctly and accurately for $thousands most of the time, without counterfeiting. Have never had a dissatisfied customer. Buy low sell high as they say. Bought 2 mod 94 flat bands as advertised as being drilled and tapped or otherwise modified, for $1000.00 bought and shipped ($980.00 actually) and sold each one for $1200.00 per each after changing one screw to an original screw, (which I fully disclosed) among many others savage, ruger, marlin, etc. I buy collector firearms at auction and re sell. generally certain models. I have clientele whom request a certain firearm and know my ability to determine quality and will often wait until I find it. Where this auction was is unbeknownst to me. I evaluated everything online for several days and came to the final decision that of my 2 rooms of winchester collections, about half of this merchandise looked off. I compared several of my own collection in those calibers (which have been from known long time generational collections) to determine that I have not seen a Rifle to be presented in that way with very inconsistent stamping EVER. I might be throwing in the towel, I might have should have bought in, However, I was not there, and I watched on my computer. It was just too many lose ends. I have bought pre 64 model 70s from estates covered in a yellowish layer of varnish and taken to gunsmith only to be told that this was the original from factory cosmoline type film which SHOULD be removed at storefront. Those are collector grade firearms. generally in rare caliber, occasionally never fired or rarely fired. thanks for the input, Hopefully this information gets to those who can use it. Definitely helps me.
November 5, 2014
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For TedK-
Christiansburg VA… Linkhous Auctions… Surveyed it a while before the sale. This one generated a fair few off-line pre-auction queries…
https://www.lagbids.com/ui/auctions/145837?query=winchester
Is there some special criminal statute that applies to selling bad M70s in PA? Selling fakes across State lines?? Whazzup with your question??? Do you know something you’re not saying????
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
December 3, 2017
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The .22HP barrel marking looks odd, though I am no expert. The caliber stamp looks odd, but so does the word “model”. Both have similar characteristics. A most perplexing riddle since I thought the word “model” was part of the standard roll stamping?
August 8, 2024
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Back in the late 1980s. Ron’s Gun Shop, out of Old Lyme Ct. offered a .405 Model 70. If my memory serves me correct I believe that it was a Carbine. The one feature that I remembered about that rifle was that it had the heavier .375 H&H barrel. Which I thought was interesting. I agree with Louis about being very concerned with a non-cataloged Model 70s. I have a Carbine that is chambered in a non-cataloged caliber. I have owned this for around 30 years, and the Man that I bought it from owned it for 30 years or so. Yes, perhaps they faked guns in the early 1960s, but it seems to me that most of the Model 70s that I find concerns with are new on the market.
November 5, 2014
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Just thought I’d make a comment intended to address what I believe is a misconception that is often repeated by purveyors of “rare uncataloged chamberings”… It is commonly stated that (13,283) pre-64 M70s were made in chamberings other than the (18) cataloged ones. I think sellers use this to justify the existence, and relative abundance, of these uncataloged rifles.
Where did that number come from? Table 4-4, “M70 Production Shipments by Chamberings”, in Roger Rule’s M70 book. The (1937-63) total given under Specials/Other is (13,283). If true, it would mean that uncataloged guns such as those being offered for sale are more common than Carbines (7,197) and almost as common as Super Grades (15,881). These are Rule’s numbers… Unfortunately, the whereabouts of the factory documents provided by Harry Chamberlain regarding Production/Shipping that Roger reviewed and synthesized for the book are (at least presently) unknown.
But the question is exactly WHAT was included in the category “Specials/Other”, appearing in a Table of Shipments by chambering? Are they ALL non-standard chamberings? Are ANY of them non-standard chamberings?
My (potentially incorrect) understanding of the way the factory operated is that regular/scheduled production was coordinated by work orders for batches of guns by catalog symbol, for example an order might call for (100) G7004C (30 GOV’T’06 Standard rifle with 22G sight). These regular production orders were tracked through the manufacturing/shipping processes and incorporated into the summative reports of sales/shipments by caliber. “Specials” represented any gun that was manufactured on a single gun work order, i.e. anything that involved special handling because it was being made to fill a specific customer order for something non-standard. That category also included receivers that were retained in parts inventory for repair work…
Winchester’s catalogs offered many options; e.g. recoil pads, different sights, extra checkering, etc. Several, like pre-war target rifles in NRA style stocks, National Match and Target rifles in 308 WIN, Bull Guns in calibers other than 30-06 and 300 H&H MAGNUM, 308 WIN Featherweights with 24″ barrels, etc. were specifically mentioned in the catalog at various times. ANY rifle built with optional features, even a simple factory-installed recoil pad, would have been processed as a single gun order, i.e. “Special” and NOT included in the summative “Shipments by Caliber” reports.
One thing Winchester did NOT offer in the catalog was non-standard chamberings… Sure… Some “clean-up” guns, e.g. 9 M/M, 7.65 M/M (and even 30 WCF), were put together from leftover M54 parts simply b/c the factory never threw anything away if they thought they could sell it. A few R&D guns were built in calibers that never entered production, e.g. the one known genuine Featherweight in 284 WIN, and it’s possible that a few “Specials” may have been made for influential customers in non-standard calibers.
But M70s in 218 Bee, 25-20 WCF, 22 Hi Power, 219 Zipper, 303 Savage??? Cartridges that had pretty close ballistic equivalents in regularly cataloged standard chamberings and would have required special machine work (barrels and actions) to produce a functional gun??? Really??? 
Color me skeptical… 
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
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