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When the first batch of cartridges were prepared for distribution to dealers. No smokeless at all in the Feb. 1893 catalog, or notice of .25WCF, closest catalog I have to date of introduction.
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Not sure when it was listed but I believe that it would be available no sooner than 1895. The 25 WCF was designed for the Model 1892.
The 25-20 WCF (repeater) cartridge was first offered in the August 1895 catalog No. 55. It was available in both black powder and smokeless when it was introduced. The 25-20 W.H.V. load was first listed in the 1905 catalog.
In the August 1895 catalog No. 55, the 25-20 WCF ammo was listed as follows;
Black powder cartridges were $16.00 per thousand
Smokeless powder cartridges were $25.00 per thousand
In the April 1900 catalog No. 65 the 25-20 WCF ammo was listed as follows;
Black powder cartridges were $16.00 per thousand
Smokeless powder cartridges were $19.00 per thousand
In the 1905 catalog No. 72 the 25-20 WCF ammo was listed as follows;
Black powder cartridges were $16.00 per thousand
Smokeless powder cartridges were $19.00 per thousand
W.H.V. cartridges were $21.00 per thousand
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Was the introduction of the 25-20 for the purpose of small varmint hunting and target shooting or was the round made for slightly larger game ?
Bill
Blueliner said
Was the introduction of the 25-20 for the purpose of small varmint hunting and target shooting or was the round made for slightly larger game ?Bill
The 25-20 WCF was not considered a “Target” cartridge. For those shooters that wanted a .25 caliber target rifle and cartridge, they bought a Model 1885 Single Shot in 25-20 S.S. (Single Shot).
In my opinion, the 25-20 WCF was introduced as a small game and short range varmint eradication cartridge.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
MANY deer have been taken with it over the years, including the James Jordan Buck: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Jordan_Buck
mrcvs said
MANY deer have been taken with it over the years, including the James Jordan Buck: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Jordan_Buck
Good grief, you can say the same about the .22LR–a favorite of deer poachers. (And I’ve killed plenty of goats almost as big as deer with it.) Folks that count up the kills made with inadequate, under-powered, cartridges NEVER include statistics on the deer or other game animals that escape badly wounded.
Thank you, Bert. As always, offering us information to glean.
Do you have the records on whether or not the drop in the smokeless price from 1895 to 1900 was the last time the USA saw a lowering of price over five years for anything!
FromTheWoods said
Thank you, Bert. As always, offering us information to glean.
Especially these facts, because there’s much misinformation in circulation about this cartridge, such as it being a smokeless round from the very beginning.
FromTheWoods said
Thank you, Bert. As always, offering us information to glean.Do you have the records on whether or not the drop in the smokeless price from 1895 to 1900 was the last time the USA saw a lowering of price over five years for anything!
No I do not, but I am sure that it was not the last time Winchester dropped their price on something… in fact, I know it wasn’t. Specifically, when Winchester introduced the Stainless Steel barrels in 1926 (for several different models), it was a special order item that cost an extra $6. By the year 1930, they were offered at no extra cost!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
clarence said
FromTheWoods said
Thank you, Bert. As always, offering us information to glean.
Especially these facts, because there’s much misinformation in circulation about this cartridge, such as it being a smokeless round from the very beginning.
Clarence,
One can make the argument that it was a “smokeless round from the beginning”… Winchester did offer both types of ammo from day 1.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
The 25-20 WCF (repeater) cartridge was first offered in the August 1895 catalog No. 55.
There’s one more .25-20 repeater cartridge, the .25-20 Marlin; my understanding (correct me if I’m wrong) is that it’s interchangeable with .25-20WCF. According to Marlin records, the first Marlin M.1894 chambered for their .25-20 cartridge was built 11-8-94.
Though .25WCF was first catalogued in August of ’95, when was it first advertised in shooting periodicals, or elsewhere, if that is known? And what is the date of mfg. of the earliest M.’92 made for it? Very strange if almost simultaneous appearance of these two cartridges was mere coincidence.
clarence said
There’s one more .25-20 repeater cartridge, the .25-20 Marlin; my understanding (correct me if I’m wrong) is that it’s interchangeable with .25-20WCF. According to Marlin records, the first Marlin M.1894 chambered for their .25-20 cartridge was built 11-8-94.
Though .25WCF was first catalogued in August of ’95, when was it first advertised in shooting periodicals, or elsewhere, if that is known? And what is the date of mfg. of the earliest M.’92 made for it? Very strange if almost simultaneous appearance of these two cartridges was mere coincidence.
Clarence,
The original 25-20 Marlin was not interchangeable with the 25-20 WCF, as it could not be fully inserted into a 25-20 WCF chamber. However, the 25-20 WCF could be used in any 25-20 Marlin chambered firearm. In the early years of production, the 25-20 Marlin had a sharper shoulder that was slightly longer than the more tapered shoulder on the 25-20 WCF, and it had a slightly longer neck than the 25-20 WCF. That difference made it easy to load a 25-20 WCF in a Marlin, but prevented the 25-20 Marlin from being loaded in a Winchester rifle chambered for the 25-20 WCF.
The 25-20 Marlin did precede the 25-20 WCF by approximately 6-months. However, Marlin simply took Winchester’s 32 WCF cartridge, necked it down, and called it their own. In the end, Winchester got the last laugh, as Marlin replaced the 25-20 Marlin with the Winchester 25-20 WCF by WW I.
I do not know specifically when or where Winchester first advertised the 25-20 WCF. The earliest Model 1892 rifles in 25-20 WCF appear in the early 40000 serial range. I know that serial number 41117 was received in the warehouse in late June of 1895 as a “25/20”. Model than likely there are a few earlier specimens.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
The 25-20 Marlin did precede the 25-20 WCF by approximately 6-months. However, Marlin simply took Winchester’s 32 WCF cartridge, necked it down, and called it their own. In the end, Winchester got the last laugh, as Marlin replaced the 25-20 Marlin with the Winchester 25-20 WCF by WW I.
Without a doubt, the last laugh. But in light of Marlin’s 6-month head-start with this cartridge, the question presents itself, was THAT the impetus (even if Marlin’s inspiration had been Winchester’s “own” 32 WCF) for Winchester’s development of their .25-20? Necking down such a versatile case as the .32 WCF seems almost inevitable, but can’t help but wonder if the arrival of the .25 WCF would have occurred exactly when it did without the “encouragement” of the .25-20 Marlin.
Clarence,
One thing to keep in mind… Winchester already had a “25 WCF” cartridge in their inventory long before the 25-20 Marlin or the 25-20 WCF cartridge introduced. In the year 1890, Winchester began offering the “25 W.C.F.” cartridge (a.k.a. the 25-20 Single Shot) in the Model 1885. All of the barrels were marked “25 W.C.F.” until late in the year 1895, when they changed it to “25-20 S.S.”, and at the same time began offering the “25-20 W.C.F.”
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Clarence,
One thing to keep in mind… Winchester already had a “25 WCF” cartridge in their inventory long before the 25-20 Marlin or the 25-20 WCF cartridge introduced. In the year 1890, Winchester began offering the “25 W.C.F.” cartridge (a.k.a. the 25-20 Single Shot) in the Model 1885. All of the barrels were marked “25 W.C.F.” until late in the year 1895, when they changed it to “25-20 S.S.”, and at the same time began offering the “25-20 W.C.F.”
Bert
Yes, to my shock & huge disappointment, I found that out in the ’70s when I bought a LW so marked at a show–never occurred to me to try chambering a “true” .25WCF (which would have gotten me thrown out of the show, anyway, if someone saw me doing it). Over the last 20 yrs, two ammo companies have produced new 25-20 S.S. cases, but when I bought that gun, only old cases were available–except for the reformed cases Bill Ballard was making out of .223 brass; I bought some of those (a sight to see!), but got rid of the gun before using them.
Anyway, the use of “.25WCF” for what later came to be called 25-20 S.S. was a usurpation, because the first company to chamber a gun for that cartridge was Maynard/Mass. Arms. Stevens also usurped the name by calling it 25-20 Stevens in their catalogs (barrels were only marked 25-20); however, because Stevens bought out Mass. Arms, there was some tenuous legitimacy to their claim. Stevens eventually (probably after 1900) chambered a few Model 44s for the “true” .25WCF, due to its popularity, but I’ve never seen one, so don’t know how barrels were marked
I was wondering why Winchester did not use the already in existence .25 WCF rather than develop the 25-20 WCF? Was it to capture the Marlin market? or was it a pressure issue?
Thanks
War Eagle said
I was wondering why Winchester did not use the already in existence .25 WCF rather than develop the 25-20 WCF? Was it to capture the Marlin market? or was it a pressure issue?Thanks
I believe the .25 WCF cartridge was too long for the 1892 action. So the 25-20 WCF was developed.
War Eagle said
I was wondering why Winchester did not use the already in existence .25 WCF rather than develop the 25-20 WCF? Was it to capture the Marlin market? or was it a pressure issue?Thanks
The “25 WCF” (25-20 Single Shot) cartridge was/is too long for the Model 1892 action. The 25-20 S.S. was originally loaded with black powder, then like nearly all of the cartridges of that era, it made the transition to smokeless beginning in the late 1890s. Because Winchester only chambered the 25 WCF in the Model 1885 Single Shot, it was not a concern which powder type was used.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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