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Just wanted to do a quick comparison. Although there’s a little more bullet grain between the 3.
25-20
60 gr (4 g)
FP 2,101 ft/s (640 m/s) 588 ft⋅lb
22 magnum
50 grains (3.2 g)
FP 1,530 ft/s (470 m/s) 300 ft⋅lb
22 LR
40 gr. (2.6 g)
FP 1,200 ft/s (370 m/s) 131 ft⋅lb
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clarence said
1892takedown said
As for a 25-20 on deer, why not. Its got plenty of power for a head, neck, or heart shot.Those shots, yes, though you could say the same for hits with a .22LR. But what’s the max range, would you estimate, that the “average hunter” could make those shots with a reasonable degree of certainty, using iron sights of course, & probably offhand? Bert recommended 150 yds, but that’s way beyond my level of proficiency, though I practice offhand several times a week, & at 150 yds, because that’s where my steel targets are set up.
Yes, 150 yards, off-hand, no scope – way beyond my level of level of proficiency.
RickC said
Just wanted to do a quick comparison. Although there’s a little more bullet grain between the 3.25-20
60 gr (4 g)
FP 2,101 ft/s (640 m/s) 588 ft⋅lb22 magnum
50 grains (3.2 g)
FP 1,530 ft/s (470 m/s) 300 ft⋅lb22 LR
40 gr. (2.6 g)
FP 1,200 ft/s (370 m/s) 131 ft⋅lb
131 ft.lb in the right place is far more lethal than 588 (or a lot more) in the wrong place.
clarence said
131 ft.lb in the right place is far more lethal than 588 (or a lot more) in the wrong place.
When it comes to using a .22 LR on a deer, there’s very few right places.
I’ve heard of elephant being taken with a .22. And not with a headshot either. Apparently on an elephant, there’s a garden-hose sized vein that runs along the underside and is close to the surface. Puncture that vein with a .22 (or a knife) and the beast will bleed out fairly quickly. I am not talking with the voice of experience.
clarence said
1892takedown said
As for a 25-20 on deer, why not. Its got plenty of power for a head, neck, or heart shot.Those shots, yes, though you could say the same for hits with a .22LR. But what’s the max range, would you estimate, that the “average hunter” could make those shots with a reasonable degree of certainty, using iron sights of course, & probably offhand? Bert recommended 150 yds, but that’s way beyond my level of proficiency, though I practice offhand several times a week, & at 150 yds, because that’s where my steel targets are set up.
I’m better at hitting a target than a deer as there’s always that bit of a adrenaline rush that may cause you to rush a bit more shooting game than target practicing.
I assume I’m not alone.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
clarence said
1892takedown said
As for a 25-20 on deer, why not. Its got plenty of power for a head, neck, or heart shot.Those shots, yes, though you could say the same for hits with a .22LR. But what’s the max range, would you estimate, that the “average hunter” could make those shots with a reasonable degree of certainty, using iron sights of course, & probably offhand? Bert recommended 150 yds, but that’s way beyond my level of proficiency, though I practice offhand several times a week, & at 150 yds, because that’s where my steel targets are set up.
It would depend on eyesight, proficiency, acknowledgement of ones own limitations, and patience to take the right shot. I dont think it would be a stretch to shoot a deer out to about 50-60 yards with a 25-20. Would venture to guess most deer back then (as well as now days with scoped rifles), were killed at ranges under or well under 100 yards.
If you were using that 25-20 or other small caliber gun all the time meat or fur hunting on small game like rabbits, coons, turkey, squirrel, etc., sighting on a deer wouldnt seem to be that big of a stretch at those ranges.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Have to agree with that Chris. I’ve also been searching the numbers for the 32-20 as well.
Any thoughts?
32-20
85 gr (6 g) JHP
1,100 ft/s (340 m/s)
228 ft⋅lbf
25-20
60 gr (4 g)
2,101 ft/s (640 m/s)
588 ft⋅lbf
RickC said
Have to agree with that Chris. I’ve also been searching the numbers for the 32-20 as well.
Any thoughts?32-20
85 gr (6 g) JHP
1,100 ft/s (340 m/s)
228 ft⋅lbf25-20
60 gr (4 g)
2,101 ft/s (640 m/s)
588 ft⋅lbf
Wow – in comparing those numbers, the .25-20 looks like a real powerhouse when compared to the .32-20. Just about double the velocity and just about triple the foot pounds. However, I know there are other loadings that do much better. I see some .32-20 loadings pushing the 85 grain bullet up to 2300 fps. Needlessly powerful for deer 😉
The vast amount of loading information available on the internet is a good indicator of how popular both the .25-20 and .32-20 are. I think the .32-20 is a bit more popular and firearms chambered in the .32-20 are a more common. For example, in modern times, the Browning M53 was available in the .32-20 but not the .25-20. Same for the Ruger Blackhawk revolver. Marlin has chambered both the .25-20 and .32-20 in their M1894 CL Classic. Going back in time, I recall both Colt and S&W chambered revolvers in .32-20 but I can’t recall any in .25-20. A final note, some modern .32-20 rifles (including the Ruger Blackhawk) have .308 bores rather than the traditional .312 bores. I enjoy both these cartridges and load them often.
1892takedown said
It would depend on eyesight, proficiency, acknowledgement of ones own limitations, and patience to take the right shot. I dont think it would be a stretch to shoot a deer out to about 50-60 yards with a 25-20. Would venture to guess most deer back then (as well as now days with scoped rifles), were killed at ranges under or well under 100 yards.
A 50 yd head shot is not unreasonable–I could do that, though not in a hurry. But remember I said “average hunter,” & I’m pretty sure I’m at least somewhat better than Mr. Average. At my range, seeing anyone NOT shooting off a bench is a very rare sight. Adding another 50 yds makes a BIG difference. The 100 yd steel targets at my range I can hit offhand 5 out of 5 with my M. 52, but at 150 yds, my “kill” ratio is about 3 for 5.
steve004 said
A final note, some modern .32-20 rifles (including the Ruger Blackhawk) have .308 bores rather than the traditional .312 bores.
Good idea–many more choices in bullets.
Folks, Humor me a bit, please, but I recall a similar discussion some years ago and I chipped in then, too. No personal experience, but can relate that an old timer in northern MN had but one “gun”, an 1892 SRC in .25-20 using factory ammo from the local Gamble’s store. No idea of the grain weight. His name was Percy Sweatt, and he and his wife Helen, lived an existence type life and raised a family in a cabin with a dirt floor in the kitchen. Percy shot deer with regularity, either in or out of season. He trapped and would dispatch some of the catch with the .25-20 as well. He had shot one bear that was bothering his milk cows, and Helen shot a big bobcat the year after Percy died. Percy told me how to hunt deer. Slip quietly into the swamp, get up on one of the old, big white pine stumps, then break a stick so the deer would stand up. Shots were usually inside 75 yards, and he shot for the heart. Else he shot them in his garden behind the cabin. I was up there the year before being posted to Germany, and found that Helen had given the carbine to their grandson. I then found that he had promptly traded it at the Gambles store for a modern, bolt action rifle. I asked at the store, but no one, including the owner, recalled the transaction. The SRC had absolutely NO finish left on it. I had no idea of the bore condition. But it had been Percy’s and I would have loved to have had it. It and the caliber were sufficient for any use that either Percy or Helen had for it. They walked in from the trail head and homesteaded their place way, way back. Another weapon that was passed on and lost was Percy’s dad’s cap and ball revolver from the civil war, but that is another story. I never saw it. Very nice people and it was great being able to talk with either of them. Perhaps my tale will help them live on in my memory a bit more. Tim
I am thinking the 32-20 with a hotter load, would do a bit better than shown in the the stats.I would say a 60 grain 25-20 bullet at 2,101 ft/s, would be a hot load for it.
I’ll have you gentlemen know that the 25-20 was a World Record Killing Cartridge!
https://community.legendarywhitetails.com/legends/james-jordan-buck/
One hell of a story to go with it as well.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
This is the buck I spoke of in post 3 of this thread.Just had forgotten all the details.Do remember that water had something to do with the death.Thanks for posting the whole story,Maverick.
Maverick said
I’ll have you gentlemen know that the 25-20 was a World Record Killing Cartridge!
Makes you wonder why Winchester developed the .30 & .32 WCFs. Africa?
clarence said
Maverick said
I’ll have you gentlemen know that the 25-20 was a World Record Killing Cartridge!Makes you wonder why Winchester developed the .30 & .32 WCFs. Africa?
Well… the .32 Special anyway….
Kevin Jones said
28 gauge said
The 25-20 would not be my first choice as a deer rifle,but close enough and a well placed shot would work.Many deer have been taken with a 22 rimfire, under certain conditions.
I remember reading about the Jordan Buck,the top record buck at one time,being shot with a Winchester Model 1892 in 25-20.From what I remember reading about the taking of the buck,it was shot with a 25-20,but the bullet did not kill it right away it fell in water and most likely had drowning as part of the reason for its death.
The 25-20 is a nice calibre in its own right.Fun rifle to shoot and quite accurate.Found IMR 4198 to work really well in the 25-20.
Since you brought up the 22, I will risk de-railing this thread with a fond hunting story from near 60 years ago.
I started deer hunting with family and friends when I was about 6 years old (which was typical in my family) with a single shot bolt action 22 rifle. The older boys would always tease me saying that I was wasting my time and that I would never kill a deer with than old 22.
So one hunt, my grandfather asked me if I would go with him that day and if he could use my 22. So I was thrilled and sure enough he killed a huge buck (not sure how big, but with me being under 4′ tall, looked like a moose to me). He shot it in the head from what seemed a long ways away to me.
From that day on my brothers and other older boys never teased me about my 22 again.
Here’s what my 6 year old grandson uses. A nice little Henry 22 I bought him.
Great Story! When I first started hunting with dad, he made me carry my Daisy BB gun. He wanted to make sure I could carry and handle a gun before I’d hold a shotgun. I complained plenty – but he said, “At least you can shoot sparrows. You should see what I had to carry when I first started with my brothers”. I asked, “what did you have to carry?” His response, “A stick”.
Yes, I shot a small doe once with the .25-20. The deer had been hit by a car and was standing at the side of the road with two broken legs. I heard the collision, saw what happened and ran back to the house for a rifle to dispatch the poor thing.
I live in Canada. By law, our guns must be stored locked-up and our ammo must be stored separately. I grabbed the first gun I could get unlocked in a hurry. It was a Winchester Model 1873 in .25-20.
(I know, I know — the Model ’73 was never made in .25-20. This one had been converted from .32-20 using a Marlin .25-36 barrel. The cartridges feed perfectly and the faster twist rate doesn’t seem to affect accuracy at all. As my gunsmith said, “It’s OK to spin a bullet too fast, just don’t spin them too slow.”)
Back to our story… One shot in the head from 10 yards put the deer down instantly but it was still thrashing. A second shot ended that. I returned to the house to get my truck but by the time I got back someone else had taken her home for dinner. It’s all good.
The load was a plain-base 85-grain FN bullet made of wheel-weight metal and powered by 7.0 grains of IMR 4227. The choreographed velocity was 1,356 f.p.s. at the muzzle.
This is definitely not a deer load. .25 is a small calibre, 85 grains is a light weight, 1,356 f.p.s. is a slow speed and wheel-weight metal won’t mushroom at that velocity. You might be able to kill a small deer at close range with a well-placed broadside shot in the heart/lung vitals but anything less will let that deer run off with a mortal wound and no blood trail.
Personally, I hunt deer with a .44-40 and moose with a .348 WCF. I don’t recommend anything less.
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