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I was given a good price for a very nice (retains 90% finish) Winchester Model 64 Deluxe .30WCF rifle with a stock 24″ round barrel. After some quick research, I assumed it was the Lyman 56 receiver peep sight which I believe was the offering back then. Unfortunately, this beautiful gun has a Lyman 21 long arm on it.
My question is, what was done to the gun for the Lyman 21 sight to be mounted on the Model 64 receiver?
This has to hurt the value of this collectible. Right? Hence, why the asking price looks so attractive initially.
Thanks for your response, Tony
To mount the Lyman No. 21 on a M64 Winchester, two holes would need to be tapped in the left side of the receiver. The holes Winchester put there for the M66 sight cannot be used. I’ve never seen a M64 with a Lyman No. 21 sight. I think when a receiver sight was ordered, the M66 was used. An exception would be the bolt peep.
I was pondering if a Winchester M64 could be ordered with the M21 sight. Without looking, I’m pretty sure there was not an application code for the M21 sight for the M64 Winchester. I recall Strobel said the end year for the M21 was 1943. They started making the M64 in late 1932, so there sure was some overlap.
But yes, two more holes in the side of the M64 receiver will have a sizeable impact on the collector value of the rifle.
I’m interested what others more knowledgeable than me have to say on the topic.
I added a picture of the gun manufactured in 1934 with 30WCF. Looking closely Steve, I think you are correct.
Very early model 64s were not drilled and tapped for a peep sight. If a Lyman 21 was factory installed, I’d expect the receiver to not have the two receiver sight holes. It may be that Winchester installed it on a later receiver but a lot of collectors would probably be skeptical about that.
Tony Wedeward said
I added a picture of the gun manufactured in 1934 with 30WCF. Looking closely Steve, I think you are correct.
I can’t say the sight looks all that wrong on the M64. I’ve seen a lot of pistol grip checkered M1894’s with the Lyman No. 21. Were it not for the comb flute, I’d nearly have thought this was a semi-deluxe M1894 with a Lyman 21. I kind of like it and the holes for the No. 66 sight aren’t observable. I have a strong bias toward the No. 21 sight – I like them on Winchester, Marlins, Savage…
Here’s an example on an early Savage M1899:
I’ll take the Climbin’ Lyman, factory or no, over that chunky 56, which is just as obtrusive as the unmarked one on mrcv’s ’86. The owner who installed that 21 had class.
Hello Tony,
What is the serial number on your Model 64 Deer Rifle? The early production Model 64’s were not factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight, and could have been special ordered with a Lyman No. 21 (with the same application code as those installed on the Model 1894/94’s). Beginning in August of 1933, Winchester began drilling & tapping the receivers for a Lyman No. 56 peep sight (the Lyman No. 66A replaced the No. 56 in 1953), on most of the Model 64’s, but not all. By August of 1934, all Model 64 receivers were drilled & tapped. The question I have, is the receiver on your Model 64 drilled & tapped for a Lyman No. 56 sight?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Hi Bert, thanks for your reply. I did buy this Model 64 Deer Rifle a few days ago. The serial number of my gun is 1091802. My information tells me this Model 64 was produced in 1934. This gun does have a Lyman #21 receiver sight on it. The arm has LYMAN in small font just left of the vertical notches and is mark DA on the back. Do you think the receiver was drilled and tapped at the factory?
Thanks for your research and feedback. Regards, Tony
Maybe I missed it, but does this M64 have the two receiver holes for the Lyman No. 56 receiver sight?
Tony,
Model 64 S/N 1091802 was manufactured in August 1933, and it was not factory drilled & tapped for a Lyman No. 56 receiver sight. I already had this rifle listed in my research survey, with a factory installed Lyman No. 21 receiver sight.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Tony,
Model 64 S/N 1091802 was manufactured in August 1933, and it was not factory drilled & tapped for a Lyman No. 56 receiver sight. I already had this rifle listed in my research survey, with a factory installed Lyman No. 21 receiver sight.
Bert
That is VERY cool! Tony – this is a lucky find for sure.
This is great news. So my Winchester 64 S/N 1091802 was produced in August of 1933 and was drilled and tapped to install a Lyman Number 21 receiver sight – which is on my gun. Now I need to determine if the sight on my Model 64 was the original sight installed at the factory. Here are three images of the sight.
1. LYMAN in small font
2. Left side of the arm, is a leaping deer with the head in the center of a circle. With 57-year-old eyes with readers, I can barely pick it up.
3. On the back of the sight on the arm is DA.
4. Interesting Find – on the receiver side of the arm, there is a material relief to provide clearance from the Finger LeverPin Stop Screw (???). See the middle picture. Was that a standard relief or a relief specifically sights for Model 64’s and 1894’s?
It would be good to know if this particular sight was installed at the factory. Write Winchester Factory Records?
Tony,
There are no surviving records for your Model 64 other than the PR records (which give us the DOM). Based on the appearance of the sight and the receiver frame, the sight appears to have been on the rifle from day one of its existence.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
2. Left side of the arm, is a leaping deer with the head in the center of a circle. With 57-year-old eyes with readers, I can barely pick it up.
The “circle” is supposed to represent the aperture of a tang sight…although the shooter doesn’t really see that, as he’s looking through, not at, the aperture. This logo goes back to the mid-1880s, & earlier than that Lyman advertised “shooting flying,” so the leaping deer was intended to suggest how easy Lyman’s tang sight made snap-shooting at running game.
How I wish I could recover the vision I had at 57!
That is a great LYMAN site history lesson, Clarence. I really like using this sight. It is so easy to use and incredibly simple. I appreciate your response.
Bert, thinking about it, I guess you are right. This gun was shipped out with a LYMAN 21 sight but no way of knowing without any S/N on the sight itself. I go with the idea that they were married together a long time ago – in August 1933.
Thanks for your feedback and support. Regards, Tony
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