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August 11, 2015
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I have a couple of guns that have experienced a similar life; getting reborn by someone for something. Kind of like getting a stent put in your heart or a knee replacement, it gives the gun another chance to keep shooting.
I have come to highly respect originality as the ultimate goal, regardless of its rarity or uniqueness, and as such have become quite picky as to what I purchase. But you cant go to bat and wait for the perfect pitch all the time. If your not swinging, your not hitting. Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron were strikeout kings, but I don’t think many people remember them for that.
Regards,
November 7, 2015
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I’m trying to become more of a collector and add higher quality Winchesters to my little collection but I’ve made some mistakes or bought shooters when a bit more money would get a better gun. As a shooter I’m just having way too much fun to care! I’ll grow up someday.
November 7, 2015
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Took the fore-end wood off my 1886 a few minutes ago, didn’t like what I found. It has the circle “VP” proof and a possible date code of “3” or the right side of an “8”. I told Cabela’s about the barrel swap uncovered by CFM and they offered to buy it back. I told them I wanted to keep it but now I’m starting to consider it. Planning on shooting it tomorrow, not sure what to do.
Suggestions?
Mike,
Those are normal markings. If I were you, I would negotiate with Cabela’s for a partial refund.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
TXGunNut said
Took the fore-end wood off my 1886 a few minutes ago, didn’t like what I found. It has the circle “VP” proof and a possible date code of “3” or the right side of an “8”. I told Cabela’s about the barrel swap uncovered by CFM and they offered to buy it back. I told them I wanted to keep it but now I’m starting to consider it. Planning on shooting it tomorrow, not sure what to do.Suggestions?
As Bert said, especially the VP in a circle was the standard underside of the barrel proof marking prior to the WP proof mark on top of the barrel and receiver after around 1905. I have 5 Model 1886’s, all made between 1888 and 1896, and all have that VP stamp along with a few other markings on the lower side of the barrel near the receiver.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Shrapnel said
There are things that just happen and other things that are designed. Most of what we see today happened. John Browning designed the 1886 with everything in harmony as far as fit, function and grace in looks. Sadly, today, most people look to simplicity and economy in what they build. Gone are the architectural designs of the Industrial years of the Centuries previous to the late 20th century and today where steel and glass seem to be the choice of design and function.
I love Winchesters of all sorts, but you do have to recognize the dynamics of the 1886 in pure function and beauty. I also have a 1965 GTO that I have owned for over 46 years. I bought it in High School and never tired of the looks of this car. It like the 1886 was designed by a man with beauty as well as usefulness was incorporated into the final product.
Today, cars are designed in wind tunnels without a thought to grace or elegance, just how much they can look like a teardrop and slip through the air. There are lots of cars today that go faster than the GTO and get better mileage doing it, but they don’t get the looks the GTO does.
Another note on the GTO that you will never find in today’s designs; The engineer, David North is from Montana, and the reason the headlights or stacked on the 1965 GTO is that he preferred the look of the Over/under shotgun to a side by side and moved the headlights from the traditional horizontal style to the vertical, due to his love for guns and hunting…
Great post shrapnel. I clicked on the picture and it pulled up a bunch more pictures, were you really going 120 MPH, or does the speedometer stop registering anything above 120 MPH and you were going much faster? I can’t quite read the tachometer but that looks like about 4,500 RPM? I could not agree more on the headlights, I have always liked the way they looked and what a great piece of info about the connection with the headlight set up and the O/U shotgun. Thanks for posting the pics and great license plate. I do have to say, my favorite picture of the lot is from a long time ago. A young couple standing and in arm in front of the car – it was cold out and snowy – free hands inside their respective winter jacket pockets.
I too, for my limited part anyways, notice a difference between the action of my 1886 and my other leverguns. I think (or guess) the reason for this is the actual weight of the individual components of the 1886 action vs. other levers. I don’t have much to compare my 1886 to, not even it’s little brother, the 1892. That just said, I have a 1892 on order from Turnbull, not an old one but a special run of modern 1892’s that Doug is putting his legendary CCH finish on. Turnbull is doing them either in 45 Colt of .44 Remington Magnum. I went with the .44 because I have been meaning to get a 44 magnum wheel gun, either an old Model 29 or a Colt Anaconda.
Leave ’em all at home boys! The Ford Thunderbolt was the baddest stocker of ’em all!:
November 7, 2015
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Bert H. said
Mike,
Those are normal markings. If I were you, I would negotiate with Cabela’s for a partial refund.
Bert
What do you feel is a fair price, Bert? CCH is a bit weak, it’s what I would normally call a 70% gun. 45-70 w/ 26″ OB. Not so sure about the wood, seems worn but could be classified as refinished. Nice looking solid shooter.
TXGunNut said
What do you feel is a fair price, Bert? CCH is a bit weak, it’s what I would normally call a 70% gun. 45-70 w/ 26″ OB. Not so sure about the wood, seems worn but could be classified as refinished. Nice looking solid shooter.
I would ask for a 30% refund.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Thanks, Bert. That sounds fair. Number I had in mind was 20% but I see where 30% makes sense as well.
I didn’t know the mail-order proof would be on the underside of the bbl, that oversight combined with the high quality of work led me to believe the barrel swap took place during an unrecorded R&R at Winchester.
Headed to the range this morning, will see how it shoots.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Thanks, Bert. That sounds fair. Number I had in mind was 20% but I see where 30% makes sense as well.I didn’t know the mail-order proof would be on the underside of the bbl, that oversight combined with the high quality of work led me to believe the barrel swap took place during an unrecorded R&R at Winchester.
Headed to the range this morning, will see how it shoots.
Mike
Looking forward to the range report – hopefully with a pic or two. Sorry that this piece has issues, but hey, if you get a great shooter for a fair price, then all is good. That is what I was after with JDJ lot # 1074.
I will not shoot mine until I have someone more knowledgeable than I give both my 1886’s a quick once over. A fellow forum member who also lived in CT is going to help me out there. I am not suggesting that the JDJ auction descriptions are misleading or in-accurate, but it makes sense to get a second opinion.
August 11, 2015
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Just want to get a bit of clarification here. My understanding was the P with a circle around it was a mail order barrel and that the VP in a circle was a verification stamp for a barrel that was originally installed in the factory. Of course, it could have been taken off an assembled gun for whatever reason and put on another gun as a replacement.
The WP is more or less a trademark used to identify it as Winchester original, assuming no plagiarism.
Is that correct?
Thanks,
P in a circle is a proof mark for mail order barrels.
VP in a circle stands for “Violent Proof” and was used until around 1905.
WP is the Winchester Proof stamp used after the changeover around 1905.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Some Winchester barrels were marked with both the WP in an oval on top of the barrel, and the VP in an oval on the bottom of the barrel.
James
November 7, 2015
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I think I was mistaken about the VP being the mail-order proof mark. I believe P is correct. Thanks for the correction but quite honestly the mail-order theory made sense. I was trying to find info on proofs last night but didn’t.
Gun shot rather poorly today with a proven load and had feeding issues as well. A good rifle will shoot fairly well with any reasonable load. I can probably make this rifle shoot but I’d rather be off to a better start. I really don’t want to dig into the feeding issues on a gun like this. Cabela’s won’t do partial credit but they will buy it back and that’s OK with me. I guess that means we’re back to a possible unrecorded R&R trip but a lot could have happened in the 110 yrs since. As mentioned earlier workmanship seems quite good as everything fits very well and looks good. Bluing looks a bit odd on the bbl but there are plenty of explanations for that.
Bummer. I really liked that gun.
Dan Porcello said
Great post shrapnel. I clicked on the picture and it pulled up a bunch more pictures, were you really going 120 MPH, or does the speedometer stop registering anything above 120 MPH and you were going much faster? I can’t quite read the tachometer but that looks like about 4,500 RPM? I could not agree more on the headlights, I have always liked the way they looked and what a great piece of info about the connection with the headlight set up and the O/U shotgun. Thanks for posting the pics and great license plate. I do have to say, my favorite picture of the lot is from a long time ago. A young couple standing and in arm in front of the car – it was cold out and snowy – free hands inside their respective winter jacket pockets.
That picture is of the GTO going down the interstate at a high rate of speed. I was about 50 MPH over the limit, passing a Mopar! The other picture you mention was my fiance and myself around 46 years ago. I have had that GTO a long time and like my wife and Winchesters, I plan on keeping them a lot longer…
November 7, 2015
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Sad day yesterday, dropped the 1886 back off at the orphanage. Looked at several recent arrivals all from the same collection but nothing interested me enough to bring one home.
Mike,
There is always the upcoming Cody show!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Very true, Bert. Guy at the table beside me in Waco had a nice 86, another one will come along.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Sad day yesterday, dropped the 1886 back off at the orphanage. Looked at several recent arrivals all from the same collection but nothing interested me enough to bring one home.
Looks like Cabela’s relisted your 1886, but they don’t mention anything regarding the barrel swap
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