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First post on this forum although I’ve referenced it a few times in the last.
i recently won a Model 70 auction from the CMP for a 1957 Model 70 in .308. Based on my searches it doesn’t appear to be in the Van Orden serial range so I’m assuming it was a match rifle for one of the services and was rebarreled at some point. I do not have the rifle in hand yet but given that the Tulsa show is next week I’m trying to determine what I need to look for to finish it off – it has the mounts on the barrel for optics or target sights as well as a rear receiver mount. It has what I believe is called the Marksman stock as well. Any thoughts on what I should be looking for to make this close to the configuration it would have been shot in?
link to the CMP’s photos of the rifle here
Be careful not to change anything. Hang on to your CMP papers to be able to prove provenance. Add a nice, genuine, leather sling, and maybe a Lyman Super Targetspot. I have owned 2 US M70’s. One, a US PROPERTY , standard M70 from 1942, and a papered Van Orden Sniper. Someone ground the US off the receiver It had a medium weight bbl., and a Lyman Super Targetspot. Best to leave it alone as Scott Duff would say. Big Larry
Big Larry said
Be careful not to change anything. Hang on to your CMP papers to be able to prove provenance. Add a nice, genuine, leather sling, and maybe a Lyman Super Targetspot. I have owned 2 US M70’s. One, a US PROPERTY , standard M70 from 1942, and a papered Van Orden Sniper. Someone ground the US off the receiver It had a medium weight bbl., and a Lyman Super Targetspot. Best to leave it alone as Scott Duff would say. Big Larry
I don’t plan to alter anything permanently but it currently lacks sights or a scope so at the very least I’m trying to determine what sights I should be on the lookout for.
You might wish to get the original hand stop and front sling hardware that rifle came with. Looks like this:
Since the rifle is fitted with a Redfield Olympic rear base, you might also wish to get Olympic front and receiver sights.
BRP
May have had a set of Redfield Olympics. I have a Marine marked M40 SB from the CMP that has the Olympic sights. A great choice. Big Larry Where are you Lou?
November 5, 2014
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Hi vellneuve-
Interesting milsurp rifle… I saw that one in the CMP auction (added it to the M70 survey). S/N 405037 is a 1957 M70 and, as you said, not one of the recorded VO “Snipers”. The US Armed Forces bought a lot of M70 Target rifles directly from Winchester, especially, it seems, in 1957.
FWIW… The graph I’ll paste below is my attempt to show, from survey data, the relationship between serial numbers of G7044C that went through Evaluators Ltd (VO Snipers and Special targets), other “US PROPERTY” marked M70 Target rifles, and civilian G7044C (presumably no military connection). The serial numbers of the three groups very commonly overlap (even consecutive). I presume this is b/c 30-06 Target rifles used specialized receivers (with clip slot) that were made up in batches… Short story is that just because a Model 70 Target has a S/N CLOSE TO a Van Orden doesn’t mean that it IS a Van Orden… 
I wish RIA would figure this out… 
In original form, S/N 405037 would have had a 24″ Medium Heavy (Target) barrel in 30-06 SPFLD. By 1957, G7044C was not regularly supplied with metallic sights, but always had Lyman type (coved on top) scope blocks, the front block being 0.360″ high and the receiver block 0.185″ high. Whether the military asked Winchester to supply metallic sights with these rifles in 1957 is unknown (to me)…
As for “in service” alterations: 1) The rifle was re-barreled to 308 Winchester; 2) The recoil lug and first 2-inches of the barrel channel were glass bedded and the remainder generously free floated, this was typical military armorer work; 3) While the stock appears unaltered, except for bedding/barrel channel, it is missing the front sling swivel and adjustable hand stop assembly (like in BRP’s pic above); 4) The rifle has an (added) Redfield rail for mounting a Redfield Olympic or International receiver sight and what looks to me like the correct muzzle block for mounting a Redfield Olympic/International globe sight; 5) The scope block on the (front) receiver ring is factory, while the barrel block looks like a Unertl B70 block (0.260″ high) where one of the “crescents” for locking the scope into position has been reamed to accept a “POSA” mount (slightly strange that the receiver block wasn’t also modified)…
So as far as making it “period correct”… Let’s assume that it wasn’t converted to 308 Winchester until sometime in the 1960s. Meaning that I wouldn’t want to put the sights on it that a Van Orden would have carried in the 1950s, i.e. Lyman 48WH receiver sight and Lyman 77R globe front. I think I’d take advantage of the Redfield rail and get a set of either Olympics or Internationals. My sense (little data) is that the Redfields became more popular than the Lymans with military rifle teams, and the Internationals appeared in 1959. So either would be OK IMHO… I would put the front swivel/hand stop assembly back together, as they would have been used (with a sling) in competition. My inclination would be to replace the barrel block, but only b/c I don’t like the home made “POSA” alteration. If you plan on 1000-yard shooting, keep the Unertl B70 height, otherwise I’d go with the 0.360″ high front block the factory used on target weight barrels.
As for scopes… In the 1950s, the USMC used, and Evaluators Ltd (Van Orden) recommended, a 20X Lyman Super Targetspot for Camp Perry and similar venues. I do not know what was in vogue in the 1960s and later… In any event, I’d definitely add a US M1907 sling once the front swivel situation is fixed.
This is just my opinion, but I hope it helps!!!
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Appreciate the very thorough analysis and recommendations! I just picked up a replacement Olympic rear a couple weeks back for a 40X that I bought in Anniston back in the summer, the existing Olympic on it was bent where it cantilevers aft. Looks like I need another set.
not sure where to find a hand stop – is it specific to this model?
I’m going to check out the CMP’s tent sale next week and hopefully they’ll have some of these items lying around. Otherwise it’ll be Tulsa.
hoping to get this rifle out to Quantico once I have it set up and learn how to shoot long range better.
November 5, 2014
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Hi vellnueve-
The same handstop assembly was used on Model 70s and Model 52s with the Marksman stock. They are not that hard to find and turn up on eBay fairly often. You might need to buy the complete assembly even though you don’t need the rail, just everything else…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis Luttrell said
Hi vellnueve-The same handstop assembly was used on Model 70s and Model 52s with the Marksman stock. They are not that hard to find and turn up on eBay fairly often. You might need to buy the complete assembly even though you don’t need the rail, just everything else…
Lou
Thanks! I’ll be on the lookout for a few. I need one for the 52C I bought from the CMP South Store as well.
November 5, 2014
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Villneuve-
The ones you need for a 1957 M70 Target and/or M52C look like these… Blued (not satin chrome) and with the front swivel looking like the upper right one in the second picture.
Good Luck!!!
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Thank you! I had been looking online and found some listings but apparently they’re the wrong ones so I’m glad you posted that guide!
Louis Luttrell said
Villneuve-The ones you need for a 1957 M70 Target and/or M52C look like these… Blued (not satin chrome) and with the front swivel looking like the upper right one in the second picture.
Good Luck!!!
Lou
CMP ran out of hand stops and during Day 1 I saw no hand stops at Tulsa.
I did get 2 Olympic front sights at the CMP on Thursday and picked up a Palma and an Olympic at Tulsa. Would the Palma be more suited to this rifle?
Both the Palma and the Olympic (as well as the Redfield International Match) will fit on the sight base already on that rifle. So it is really your choice as to which you use.
I have a hand stop assembly (complete) which I could part with. I will send you a message.
BRP
Got the rifle and installed an Olympic front I bought at the CMP a few weeks back and a Palma I got in Tulsa a few weeks back. Can’t wait to try it out.
November 7, 2015
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Looks great, looking forward to a range report.
Mike
We’re all of the Winchester M70 snipers used during Nam electric pencil marked? I have two that are stamped US Property.
November 5, 2014
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RWCjr-
I confess I don’t know for sure…
Most of the M70 30-06 Target rifles purchased by the US armed forces in the mid- to late-1950s were electropenciled “US PROPERTY” on the left side of the receiver ring. The ones coming out of CMP auctions are nearly always marked. These rifles, by and large, were purchased directly from Winchester, not from Van Orden’s Evaluators Ltd. While some probably did end up in Viet Nam, they were originally meant to be Marksmanship Team rifles.
Some of the Van Orden M70s are also electropenciled, but far from all. The US Army (USART) was the largest single purchaser of VO Snipers/Special Targets. But Evaluators Ltd also sold to individual customers. Some (unknown number) of these also ended up in Viet Nam, but were likewise not initially intended to be combat weapons.
As for the “true” USMC Sniper rifles built for combat service, I really don’t know. These were the rifles rebuilt from the (383) pre-war M70 Standard Rifles purchased in 1942. In the 1950s they got re-barreled with heavy target barrels from Winchester or Douglas, but mostly retained their standard NRA style stocks. They are rarely seen outside of the one in the USMC Museum. Some are pictured with various cartouches stamped in the wood (but some of those are fakes). I don’t know if any got electropenciled. The “US PROPERTY” electropencil may have been more something done to identify Stateside rifles as Government property…
Adding to the confusion, I’ve seen a fair number of M70 Target rifles whereupon the “US PROPERTY” marking had been polished out and the receiver reblued… So in sum, I don’t think that they ALL were electropenciled…
This probably won’t help much, but this beehive plot (work in progress) compares the serial numbers of Van Orden Snipers, “US PROPERTY” marked M70 Target rifles, and other G7044C (Target rifles that are not Van Ordens and not electropenciled). Since 30-06 Target receivers, which retained the clip loading slot, were specialized parts, they were made in batches. It’s easy to see there was lots of overlap in serial number range, as receivers were used to build the three categories depicted.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
vellnueve said
First post on this forum although I’ve referenced it a few times in the last.i recently won a Model 70 auction from the CMP for a 1957 Model 70 in .308. Based on my searches it doesn’t appear to be in the Van Orden serial range so I’m assuming it was a match rifle for one of the services and was rebarreled at some point. I do not have the rifle in hand yet but given that the Tulsa show is next week I’m trying to determine what I need to look for to finish it off – it has the mounts on the barrel for optics or target sights as well as a rear receiver mount. It has what I believe is called the Marksman stock as well. Any thoughts on what I should be looking for to make this close to the configuration it would have been shot in?
link to the CMP’s photos of the rifle here
That’s a beautiful rifle!
It would probably be worth your time to submit a FOIA with the U.S. Army to see where your rifle has been for the past 50 years. You might get lucky and get a hit on a specific unit. Regrettably, my VO rifle didn’t get any FOIA hits, but just about everything I’ve purchased from the CMP has had at least a little bit of information on where it has been.
I promise I’m not trying to make you feel bad, but you should have been at the CMP South Store last Thursday. They were selling Lyman and Redfield sights like those mentioned earlier in this thread for $25 a piece and they had about 5 boxes full of them. It was the cheapest I had ever seen them, but the CMP is always extremely fair when it comes to surplus pricing.
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