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Model 12 Riot Shot Gun
February 16, 2021
1:41 am
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February 16, 2021
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Hello and thank you for allowing me to post on your site. 

I bought a Model 12 Riot Shotgun it has matching serial numbers on the barrel and the receiver where they mate together. The serial number is 985032 which looks like it was made in 1942. When I took it apart to look for a barrel date I noticed the following numbers under the barrel 978 798. The numbers are under the barrel in between the bottom of the barrel and the part of the barrel that allows the slide to slide thru. Any idea what this means?  Everything else looks kosher from what I have been able to determine thru research it has the U.S. and flaming bomb on the side and flaming bomb on the top of the barrel. GHD Cartouche and crossed cannons on the stock. Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

February 16, 2021
2:44 am
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Kingston, WA
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Did you find the barrel date? If so, what was it?

To the best of my knowledge, Winchester did not mark serial numbers on the barrels, but it is possible that a serial number was stamped on the barrel during its tenure in the U.S. Military, possibly during an arsenal repair/reburb cycle. Pictures of the gun and all of the markings on gun and barrel might shed some light on this matter.

Bert

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February 16, 2021
4:36 am
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What about a "rework/repair" number? I have seen many model 70's and 52's with such numbers under the barrel. 

Steve

February 16, 2021
6:08 am
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seewin said
What about a "rework/repair" number? I have seen many model 70's and 52's with such numbers under the barrel. 

Steve  

Possible, but without some kind of documentation, everything we can think of is just a theory.

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February 16, 2021
5:12 pm
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Scottpsu89@gmail.com said
Hello and thank you for allowing me to post on your site. 

I bought a Model 12 Riot Shotgun it has matching serial numbers on the barrel and the receiver where they mate together. The serial number is 985032 which looks like it was made in 1942. When I took it apart to look for a barrel date I noticed the following numbers under the barrel 978 798. The numbers are under the barrel in between the bottom of the barrel and the part of the barrel that allows the slide to slide thru. Any idea what this means?  Everything else looks kosher from what I have been able to determine thru research it has the U.S. and flaming bomb on the side and flaming bomb on the top of the barrel. GHD Cartouche and crossed cannons on the stock. Any help would be greatly appreciated.   

If the shotgun is still blue, chances are it has never seen a rework. Most of the time, reworks were parkerized, but not always. Does it have swivels? Not many do. Cannot account for the numbers under the bbl.  Big Larry

February 16, 2021
5:43 pm
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I was referring to a Winchester repair, not an arsenal rebuild. I do not believe Winchester would have parkerized it for a repair from the owner at the time.

Steve

February 16, 2021
6:24 pm
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seewin said
I was referring to a Winchester repair, not an arsenal rebuild. I do not believe Winchester would have parkerized it for a repair from the owner at the time.

Steve  

It is my understanding that the WW II Model 12 Trench & Riot Guns were repaired/refurbished in house by the various military arsenals versus being sent back to Winchester.   Like Big Larry mentioned, they were very frequently Parkerized during the repair/refurb.

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February 16, 2021
6:44 pm
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Bert H. said

It is my understanding that the WW II Model 12 Trench & Riot Guns were repaired/refurbished in house by the various military arsenals versus being sent back to Winchester.   Like Big Larry mentioned, they were very frequently Parkerized during the repair/refurb.  

I don't doubt that a bit. However, if after the shotgun got into civilian hands and needed some repair, it would have been sent to Winchester. I wouldn't even mention this, except that I have seen so many model 70's and 52's over the past years with a similar sequence of numbers on bottom side of barrel.

Steve

February 16, 2021
7:16 pm
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Thanks for the help. I just became a paying member seems like a great organization. Trying to upload some pictures but the upload button isn’t showing up. Will keep working on it. There are no swivels. 

February 16, 2021
7:21 pm
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Scottpsu89@gmail.com said
Thanks for the help. I just became a paying member seems like a great organization. Trying to upload some pictures but the upload button isn’t showing up. Will keep working on it. There are no swivels.   

Scott,

Your Member status is still showing "WACA Guest" which is what is preventing you from uploading pictures. I will reset it to "WACA Member" which will then allow you to upload pictures.

Bert - Admin

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February 17, 2021
12:57 am
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In any event, you have a very nice piece of US militaria. When I collected US Shotguns, the M12 US marked riot was a very hard to find gun. Most had been reworked or turned into Trenchguns. All mine are gone now, but for one lonely WW2 M97 Trenchgun, which I found I could not part with. Aso. FWIW, I have seen blued M12's with the small hardness hole in them. A few M75's as well. All were factory blue. Winchester was good at poking holes in their Garand parts too.  Big Larry

February 17, 2021
1:43 am
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There was a contract issued to Winchester at the end of WWII to refurbish Model 97 and Model 12 shotguns.  It was for 30,000 shotguns.  Don't know if it was ever fulfilled.

Over my years of collecting military shotguns I have seen around a dozen Model 12 riot guns that had been refurbished with a blue finish.  The finish was very well done on them.  I don't recall them having any re-arsenal marks, and a few had punch marks on top of the barrel and receiver.  There was a theory at one time that it was Winchester who applied those punch marks on these rebuilt shotguns.

Big Larry, I think you used to own a re-blued Model 1897 trench gun that had the punch marks on top, no?

February 17, 2021
2:37 am
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Thanks for all the help. What a great place please see the attached photos I need to work on my photo placement hopefully you can see them they look good as I am typing but not so good in the preview.

 

Cartouche Image EnlargerFlame bombbImage EnlargerSerial numbersImage Enlarger Weird numbersImage EnlargerFlaming bombImage Enlarger 

February 17, 2021
4:24 am
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Scott,

I edited your post with the pictures to clean it up.

In viewing the pictures, it is quite apparent that the gun has been polished and reblued at some point in its past.  As to who did it, that is open for debate.  The number stamped on the bottom of the barrel is also a mystery.

Bert

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February 17, 2021
4:38 pm
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Has the punchmark, so I am guessing Winchester did the redo. It still has its cartouche, and usually sanded off and a AA or other arsenal marks applied. No telling what was going on during WW2. I think Mr. Canfield would know.

Yes, I did have a shotgun with punchmarks, but I had so many US Shotguns, I cannot remember. I think it was a M12?

I also had a  US marked M75 with punchmarks. It too was blued.

My Winchester Garand has them on a lot of the small parts and they are not refinished.   Big Larry

February 17, 2021
6:37 pm
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Larry, I'm surprised to hear that Winchester took the extra time to do more work than absolutely necessary.  Their WW II Garands are not as finely finished as the Springfield's.  Heck they even refused to make changes/updates unless it was in their contract.  I have 2 Win Garands.

February 17, 2021
10:05 pm
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Chuck said
Larry, I'm surprised to hear that Winchester took the extra time to do more work than absolutely necessary.  Their WW II Garands are not as finely finished as the Springfield's.  Heck they even refused to make changes/updates unless it was in their contract.  I have 2 Win Garands.  

I saved one of mine. A real nice WIN-13. It is 100% correct and a friend gave it to me. 

Some of the internal parts for Winchesters have grooves and were hardly even finished. The only shotgun they made that was not finely finished was the late parkerized M12 Trenchgun.

I have a very late M97 Trenchgun and it has a superb finish.  Big Larry

 

WIN-13-001.jpgImage EnlargerWIN-13-005.jpgImage Enlarger

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February 28, 2021
2:43 am
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The Model 12 Riot I have only has the "42" mark on the bottom of the barrel.  Serial #966662.  It is still blued and proof stamps are crisp.

The pictures won't upload.  "HTTP Error.  Upload URL might be wrong or doesn't exist."  This error started last week and I get the same results on either computer.  RDB

February 28, 2021
4:06 am
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rogertherelic said
The Model 12 Riot I have only has the "42" mark on the bottom of the barrel.  Serial #966662.  It is still blued and proof stamps are crisp.

The pictures won't upload.  "HTTP Error.  Upload URL might be wrong or doesn't exist."  This error started last week and I get the same results on either computer.  RDB  

Roger,

Are your pictures in a folder on your PC ?  The error you are getting implies that you are trying to load them from an internet location.

Bert

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February 28, 2021
12:43 pm
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rogertherelic said
The Model 12 Riot I have only has the "42" mark on the bottom of the barrel.  Serial #966662.  It is still blued and proof stamps are crisp.

The pictures won't upload.  "HTTP Error.  Upload URL might be wrong or doesn't exist."  This error started last week and I get the same results on either computer.  RDB  

To confirm what Roger experienced, I received this same error message about a month back when attempting to upload photos from my PC.

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