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Hello and thank you for allowing me to post on your site.
I bought a Model 12 Riot Shotgun it has matching serial numbers on the barrel and the receiver where they mate together. The serial number is 985032 which looks like it was made in 1942. When I took it apart to look for a barrel date I noticed the following numbers under the barrel 978 798. The numbers are under the barrel in between the bottom of the barrel and the part of the barrel that allows the slide to slide thru. Any idea what this means? Everything else looks kosher from what I have been able to determine thru research it has the U.S. and flaming bomb on the side and flaming bomb on the top of the barrel. GHD Cartouche and crossed cannons on the stock. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Did you find the barrel date? If so, what was it?
To the best of my knowledge, Winchester did not mark serial numbers on the barrels, but it is possible that a serial number was stamped on the barrel during its tenure in the U.S. Military, possibly during an arsenal repair/reburb cycle. Pictures of the gun and all of the markings on gun and barrel might shed some light on this matter.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
What about a “rework/repair” number? I have seen many model 70’s and 52’s with such numbers under the barrel.
Steve
seewin said
What about a “rework/repair” number? I have seen many model 70’s and 52’s with such numbers under the barrel.Steve
Possible, but without some kind of documentation, everything we can think of is just a theory.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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[email protected] said
Hello and thank you for allowing me to post on your site.I bought a Model 12 Riot Shotgun it has matching serial numbers on the barrel and the receiver where they mate together. The serial number is 985032 which looks like it was made in 1942. When I took it apart to look for a barrel date I noticed the following numbers under the barrel 978 798. The numbers are under the barrel in between the bottom of the barrel and the part of the barrel that allows the slide to slide thru. Any idea what this means? Everything else looks kosher from what I have been able to determine thru research it has the U.S. and flaming bomb on the side and flaming bomb on the top of the barrel. GHD Cartouche and crossed cannons on the stock. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
If the shotgun is still blue, chances are it has never seen a rework. Most of the time, reworks were parkerized, but not always. Does it have swivels? Not many do. Cannot account for the numbers under the bbl. Big Larry
I was referring to a Winchester repair, not an arsenal rebuild. I do not believe Winchester would have parkerized it for a repair from the owner at the time.
Steve
seewin said
I was referring to a Winchester repair, not an arsenal rebuild. I do not believe Winchester would have parkerized it for a repair from the owner at the time.Steve
It is my understanding that the WW II Model 12 Trench & Riot Guns were repaired/refurbished in house by the various military arsenals versus being sent back to Winchester. Like Big Larry mentioned, they were very frequently Parkerized during the repair/refurb.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
It is my understanding that the WW II Model 12 Trench & Riot Guns were repaired/refurbished in house by the various military arsenals versus being sent back to Winchester. Like Big Larry mentioned, they were very frequently Parkerized during the repair/refurb.
I don’t doubt that a bit. However, if after the shotgun got into civilian hands and needed some repair, it would have been sent to Winchester. I wouldn’t even mention this, except that I have seen so many model 70’s and 52’s over the past years with a similar sequence of numbers on bottom side of barrel.
Steve
Thanks for the help. I just became a paying member seems like a great organization. Trying to upload some pictures but the upload button isn’t showing up. Will keep working on it. There are no swivels.
[email protected] said
Thanks for the help. I just became a paying member seems like a great organization. Trying to upload some pictures but the upload button isn’t showing up. Will keep working on it. There are no swivels.
Scott,
Your Member status is still showing “WACA Guest” which is what is preventing you from uploading pictures. I will reset it to “WACA Member” which will then allow you to upload pictures.
Bert – Admin
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
In any event, you have a very nice piece of US militaria. When I collected US Shotguns, the M12 US marked riot was a very hard to find gun. Most had been reworked or turned into Trenchguns. All mine are gone now, but for one lonely WW2 M97 Trenchgun, which I found I could not part with. Aso. FWIW, I have seen blued M12’s with the small hardness hole in them. A few M75’s as well. All were factory blue. Winchester was good at poking holes in their Garand parts too. Big Larry
There was a contract issued to Winchester at the end of WWII to refurbish Model 97 and Model 12 shotguns. It was for 30,000 shotguns. Don’t know if it was ever fulfilled.
Over my years of collecting military shotguns I have seen around a dozen Model 12 riot guns that had been refurbished with a blue finish. The finish was very well done on them. I don’t recall them having any re-arsenal marks, and a few had punch marks on top of the barrel and receiver. There was a theory at one time that it was Winchester who applied those punch marks on these rebuilt shotguns.
Big Larry, I think you used to own a re-blued Model 1897 trench gun that had the punch marks on top, no?
Thanks for all the help. What a great place please see the attached photos I need to work on my photo placement hopefully you can see them they look good as I am typing but not so good in the preview.
Scott,
I edited your post with the pictures to clean it up.
In viewing the pictures, it is quite apparent that the gun has been polished and reblued at some point in its past. As to who did it, that is open for debate. The number stamped on the bottom of the barrel is also a mystery.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Has the punchmark, so I am guessing Winchester did the redo. It still has its cartouche, and usually sanded off and a AA or other arsenal marks applied. No telling what was going on during WW2. I think Mr. Canfield would know.
Yes, I did have a shotgun with punchmarks, but I had so many US Shotguns, I cannot remember. I think it was a M12?
I also had a US marked M75 with punchmarks. It too was blued.
My Winchester Garand has them on a lot of the small parts and they are not refinished. Big Larry
Larry, I’m surprised to hear that Winchester took the extra time to do more work than absolutely necessary. Their WW II Garands are not as finely finished as the Springfield’s. Heck they even refused to make changes/updates unless it was in their contract. I have 2 Win Garands.
Chuck said
Larry, I’m surprised to hear that Winchester took the extra time to do more work than absolutely necessary. Their WW II Garands are not as finely finished as the Springfield’s. Heck they even refused to make changes/updates unless it was in their contract. I have 2 Win Garands.
I saved one of mine. A real nice WIN-13. It is 100% correct and a friend gave it to me.
Some of the internal parts for Winchesters have grooves and were hardly even finished. The only shotgun they made that was not finely finished was the late parkerized M12 Trenchgun.
I have a very late M97 Trenchgun and it has a superb finish. Big Larry
The Model 12 Riot I have only has the “42” mark on the bottom of the barrel. Serial #966662. It is still blued and proof stamps are crisp.
The pictures won’t upload. “HTTP Error. Upload URL might be wrong or doesn’t exist.” This error started last week and I get the same results on either computer. RDB
rogertherelic said
The Model 12 Riot I have only has the “42” mark on the bottom of the barrel. Serial #966662. It is still blued and proof stamps are crisp.The pictures won’t upload. “HTTP Error. Upload URL might be wrong or doesn’t exist.” This error started last week and I get the same results on either computer. RDB
Roger,
Are your pictures in a folder on your PC ? The error you are getting implies that you are trying to load them from an internet location.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
rogertherelic said
The Model 12 Riot I have only has the “42” mark on the bottom of the barrel. Serial #966662. It is still blued and proof stamps are crisp.The pictures won’t upload. “HTTP Error. Upload URL might be wrong or doesn’t exist.” This error started last week and I get the same results on either computer. RDB
To confirm what Roger experienced, I received this same error message about a month back when attempting to upload photos from my PC.
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