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Early Winchester Express Box -Question
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April 1, 2020 - 6:11 pm
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B7D77499-8BBD-4CE5-A7F3-D8A98A0048FA.jpegImage Enlarger7DC3F816-ED44-4DB7-A6B8-D3253D384DC6.jpegImage EnlargerF4CA4633-772D-46CA-A0BC-A375554CFD76.jpegImage Enlarger342AC201-401F-419E-A148-D9E94AA8F5F0.jpegImage Enlarger

 

I just acquired this box of Express (50-95) rounds from a dealer. 
I am told it’s very early in production, but, my question is in regards to the actual projectile.  They are all made in 4 equal parts, or have 4 equally spaced parting lines that run from the top to the case. Was this an option, because I have other unstamped Winchester Express rounds that do not have this feature. I was told they are “Keene” rounds. But the box does not mention anything. 

The photo of the top of the round is with a 10x magnification lens. You can see one of the parting lines about 3 o’clock, they are hard to photograph. 

Thoughts? 

Thank you 

 

Justin

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April 1, 2020 - 9:20 pm
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 Justin, Is your question about the bullet? The bullet is lead cast in a mold all one piece. Your cartridges have a hollow point covered with a copper disc allowing for the bullet to expand on impact. The mold came with a hollow point pin with a cam handle that poked in a hole in the mold. After the lead was poured in the mold the pin was removed and bullet dropped out of the mold, then the copper disc was inserted in the hole. Does that help you? T/R

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April 1, 2020 - 9:58 pm
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Each bullet tip has 4 equal parting lines, they run from the meplat to where they enter the case. They are distinct lines, that appear to have paper between them. Almost like they will open up from the center and fold out like petals on a flower. Each of the rounds in this box have these lines. The other rounds I have, each individual rounds, don’t have these lines. I’ve looked at them under 10x and 15x magnification and they are definitely parting lines. Just wondering if this was a particular round. The dealer called them “Keene” or early dumb dumb rounds. I have no knowledge of either. Just wondering why these particular rounds are with what appears to be a type of tip that flowers out rather than form an ashtray. 

I can try a different  photo of the tips, but it’s hard to photo and get more than one line per photo. The photo above you can see the one line that runs from the meplat down (at 3o’clock position). 

Maybe it’s nothing. These are just different from my other early unstamped Express rounds. Figured they may be something different. It’s my first box purchase that is full. 

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April 1, 2020 - 10:02 pm
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B5583BAA-B3F0-447E-89AA-14A522B12A3A.jpegImage EnlargerI circled the 4 lines. Maybe easier to illustrate the location. 

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April 1, 2020 - 10:51 pm
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 Justin, My experience with the 50-95 includes the guns, Winchester original loading tools, original molds, and cartridges. I have never seen what you are talking about but that doesn’t mean they didn’t make it. Perhaps a cartridge collector can shed some light on the subject. T/R

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April 1, 2020 - 11:21 pm
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 Justin, If you go to Ray Giles’s book it talks about just such a bullet. Invented by Lord Keene the bullet is partitioned into quadrants with tissue paper between. page 88. T/R

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April 1, 2020 - 11:41 pm
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Thank you. This box is purportedly from the early days of the Express rounds. I’ll keep researching, but your direction is much appreciated and helpful. 

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April 2, 2020 - 4:25 am
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The single round in your photo does appear  to  be  a  Keene design.  Are there any others in the box?  The copper cap with the X is not a disc.  It is a hollow copper tube, almost the exact same size as an empty .22 caliber CB  cartridge case.  The tube or cap is hollow, with a slight crimp on the bottom end.  This makes it easy to push into the hollow hole in the bullet nose.  They can actually be pushed in with your thumb.

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April 2, 2020 - 11:55 am
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Win4575

The box is full, it’s full of the original rounds. Each of the shells has the same type of bullet. 
I am new to the cartridge collecting and this was my first large purchase. I’ve purchased a few individual rounds before. It’ll be for display with the Rifle. Just interesting rounds that came with it. 
I am guessing the box/rounds are1879/1882 in age. 

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April 2, 2020 - 2:34 pm
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I am a bit surprised that the box is not marked KEENE, since you say that all of the ammo appears to be of that design.  But who knows, maybe they just forgot to mark it or at some time, the ammo was removed from a torn up KEENE marked box and put into a better unmarked box.  I have several early Express boxes, all with the Mills belt ad on them.  I think both your box and the ammo are probably 1879 to 1880-81.  

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April 2, 2020 - 2:48 pm
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Thank you. I simply don’t know enough to say what happened or what was possible. I appreciate the information and confirmation on age. They are neat, nonetheless.

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April 2, 2020 - 6:16 pm
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win4575 said
I am a bit surprised that the box is not marked KEENE, since you say that all of the ammo appears to be of that design.  But who knows, maybe they just forgot to mark it or at some time, the ammo was removed from a torn up KEENE marked box and put into a better unmarked box.  I have several early Express boxes, all with the Mills belt ad on them.  I think both your box and the ammo are probably 1879 to 1880-81.    

I agree with Rick.  Giles mentions that the Anson Mills Belt advertisement on the boxes came out in 1881.

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