Early 50-110 Smokeless Box|Winchester Memorabilia|Forum|Winchester Collector

steff said
The box says “Metal Patched” even though they are lead bullets, right? Are these really the correct cartridges for the box?

The cartridges have the X insert at the tip, which many Express have. Was the insert fitted at the factory or added by another company?

  

In the early days they used the term Metal Patched for lead VS the alternative being Paper Patched. They appear to be correct. The bullets have the factory Express Tube, as they should.

When I a get a chance I’ll see if I can give you an approximate date range on the box. Certainly Post-1895 due to them being Smokeless powder loaded.

Sincerely,

Maverick

Anthony said
According to Giles & Shuey book, on page 161, you’re box, was mfg. between 1896-1898.

You’re box also points out the 47 grs. Smokeless Powder, as is indicated in they’re publication.  

The Box is very most likely as Anthony has stated as referenced in the Giles & Shuey book as having been made between 1896-1898.

However, the cartridges themselves I believe are later manufacture. They appear to have the No. 2 1/2 W primer with the W in a Circle. I could be wrong, but I believe this style primer didn’t come into use until 1903.

So I suspect the cartridges are later than the box. That said they appear to be factory loaded cartridges. Just Post-1903 manufactured cartridges. 

All that said, I currently don’t recall where I came to associate said primer with said year, but will try and find it.

Sincerely,

Maverick

Anthony said
I thought that I would post this as it shows some 1970 boxes, but more importantly, patent dates of, Oct. 1 st. 1878, Sept. 9 th. 1884, Dec. 8 th. 1896, and July, 17 th. 1900.  I have been racking my brain all day, and I cannot put my finger on when those , “W”, stamped primers we’re first used, with the circle around them! Unfortunately the picture with the different primers, don’t have dates, or when they we’re first introduced.

Counting on you Maverick!!! Anthony  

Okay, a few things to go over on this one. Those primer boxes are not from the year 1970. By the 1960s the wood trays were replaced with plastic ones. 

The last box you posted has a “File Code” on the left side with # “1970”, and on the right side of the label is a “Date Code” of “10-6”. Date code equals October 1906 for when that label variation was approved for use. This file/date code system was used on ammunition boxes, primer boxes, wad boxes, and reloading tool boxes, etc.

Regarding the packaging, in 1903 Robert Gair patented a taped-seam carboard box with wooden dividers for holding primers. This was supposedly found necessary due to several accidents having occurred when using the Stamped Brass Tins for packaging primers. Which they used the brass tins since they first started selling primers in early the 1870s.

I’m still trying to figure out when they transitioned to the W in a Circle. I’ve found mention from starting in 1903 to starting in 1916. So I’m currently not sure. 

I really should pay more attention to primers! 

But without a doubt those cartridges are later than the box. Just how much later is the question?

Sincerely,

Maverick

steff said
I have now also done a bit of research in the literature on primers:

Shuey writes in his book W.R.A. Co. Headstamped cartridges and their variations

– “1894 Smokeless cartridges announced – Have ‘W’ on primer (November)”

In the Winchester catalog of December 1896 under the section “Smokeless cartridges” the primer “2 1/2 W” is given for the 50-110 Winchester. The column for the primer is missing in the earlier catalogs. However, the “2 1/2 W” primers are already available earlier.

  

Yes, I noticed the same bit of information in the catalogs. The 1894 Catalog is the first to show the No.3 primer with the W only. Later editions show the W only. Late 1893 is when they actually started marking certain sized primers with the W only. In the bound collection of catalogs I have, I have yet to find the W in a circle primer shown in the catalog. But just because its not in the catalog doesn’t necessarily mean anything. I need to re-read through Shuey’s book.

TR said
  I have a few old boxes of primers in the wood/paper box. Some have the W and some have the circle W. Is the circle W newer than the W ? T/R  

Yes its newer, some time during production on some sized primers they transitioned from marking them with a W only to a W with a circle.

I’ve reached out to a collector that is focused on collecting primers to see what he knows. I may have gotten the 1903 date for the W in a circle from him or Shuey, but currently don’t recall and find my specific notes. 

Sincerely,

Maverick