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November 7, 2015
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Steve-
I also tend to have abbreviated range sessions with this particular barrel as it’s chambered for 35 Remington. I also bend my load development rules and fire three shot groups.
Mike
Ian, this one is for you. Today was an “extreme” buffalo shoot at our gun club. Sunny, nice and cool at the low 60s but very windy out of the north. I shot a nice 1894 rifle in .25-35. It has the Winchester version of a Beaches’ front sight and a nice Lyman tang sight plus a regular barrel rear sight. Our targets are a chicken, pig, turkey and ram silhouette with a bank at 100 yards (off hand), 200 yards, (off cross sticks seated) and 300 yards (off a bench). Then at 300 yards is a large buffalo silhouette. Remember they have to go down. Ringing them is only good for the ego. Those who have seen me in person know my tremors get in the equation and I no longer shoot well off hand. I did get the pig down for a score of 3 points at 100 yds off hand. Then off the sticks I got the pig and the turkey for a score of 5 points. Bench at 300 I again got the pig and the turkey for another 5 points. Then it was the buffalo off hand at 300 yards. It came down the third shot for a score of 2 points. My total was only 1 off the top scores as the wind played the dickens with accuracy. Setting the buffalo back up showed I had uncharacteristically actually hit it twice pretty close together at the top. I do know it wiggled, took a bit to make up its mind, and then fell forward rather than backwards. I had hit the ram at 200 yards but low and it didn’t even wiggle. The Hornady 117 grain bullet gets there quickly compared to most but doesn’t have the energy to consistently take down the bigger silhouettes. But it is a just plain fun rifle to shoot! Which is why I chose it. The combination of sights makes it very flexible. The protected bead when the front is tipped up aligns with the barrel sight for a 100 yard zero with a 6 o’clock hold. Then the same bead with the tang sight is good for 200 yards with a 6 o’clock hold. For 300 yards I had the sight tipped back down and used the white bead with the tang sight and had to hold the left edge of the silhouettes due to wind, plus up about half way. I was pleased and observers shocked with how it did at the longer ranges. If I could shoot off hand at the small silhouettes I would be a contender for top scores, but it is what it is. Who knows what I will pick to shoot next time at our FEB shiver shoot! Suggest you try using some of your Winchesters to just have FUN! Tim
tim tomlinson said
Ian, this one is for you. Today was an “extreme” buffalo shoot at our gun club. Sunny, nice and cool at the low 60s but very windy out of the north. I shot a nice 1894 rifle in .25-35. It has the Winchester version of a Beaches’ front sight and a nice Lyman tang sight plus a regular barrel rear sight. Our targets are a chicken, pig, turkey and ram silhouette with a bank at 100 yards (off hand), 200 yards, (off cross sticks seated) and 300 yards (off a bench). Then at 300 yards is a large buffalo silhouette. Remember they have to go down. Ringing them is only good for the ego. Those who have seen me in person know my tremors get in the equation and I no longer shoot well off hand. I did get the pig down for a score of 3 points at 100 yds off hand. Then off the sticks I got the pig and the turkey for a score of 5 points. Bench at 300 I again got the pig and the turkey for another 5 points. Then it was the buffalo off hand at 300 yards. It came down the third shot for a score of 2 points. My total was only 1 off the top scores as the wind played the dickens with accuracy. Setting the buffalo back up showed I had uncharacteristically actually hit it twice pretty close together at the top. I do know it wiggled, took a bit to make up its mind, and then fell forward rather than backwards. I had hit the ram at 200 yards but low and it didn’t even wiggle. The Hornady 117 grain bullet gets there quickly compared to most but doesn’t have the energy to consistently take down the bigger silhouettes. But it is a just plain fun rifle to shoot! Which is why I chose it. The combination of sights makes it very flexible. The protected bead when the front is tipped up aligns with the barrel sight for a 100 yard zero with a 6 o’clock hold. Then the same bead with the tang sight is good for 200 yards with a 6 o’clock hold. For 300 yards I had the sight tipped back down and used the white bead with the tang sight and had to hold the left edge of the silhouettes due to wind, plus up about half way. I was pleased and observers shocked with how it did at the longer ranges. If I could shoot off hand at the small silhouettes I would be a contender for top scores, but it is what it is. Who knows what I will pick to shoot next time at our FEB shiver shoot! Suggest you try using some of your Winchesters to just have FUN! Tim
I do use mine to have fun, I just don’t have silhouettes to shoot at. My observations are that I’m the only one having fun with late 19th Century or early 30th Century firearms around here, however. I think a firearm from the Twentieth Century, even if at the very end of it, is considered old.
November 7, 2015
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Exciting range report, Tim. These old guns can shoot and sometimes these old collectors can too! That’s pretty impressive performance for the 25-35, as I understand it. Very impressive, good job!
Mike
I especially enjoy shooting the old, less common calibers. My favorite type of old Winchester is one that is used but honest and unmessed with and in odd calibers. I’ll get brass even if I have to have it custom-machined. Less common calibers I have owned, reloaded for, shoot, and hunted with are:
Winchester Model 1876: 45-60 and 45-75
Winchester Model 1886: 40-82 and 45-90
Winchester Model 1892: 32 WCF/32-20
Winchester Model 1894: 38-55
Winchester Model 1895: 38-72
Winchester Model 53: 25-20
Kirk, INDEED! You are an inspiration! Keep it up. We don’t have the opportunity to use most of the lever guns for hunting here, so silhouettes are a standin. I haven’t shot a .45-90 but suppose I could with toilet paper to take up space. Cheers, Kirk! Tim
My list of calibers and cartridges that I currently reload and shoot;
Single Shot: 22 K-Hornet, 25-20 S.S., 30 U.S. (30/40 Krag), 38 W.C.F., 38-55, 40-70 Ballard, 40-70 Sharps Straight, 405 W.C.F.
Model 1886: 33 W.C.F.
Model 43: 22 Hornet
Model 70: 22 K-Hornet
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
My list of calibers and cartridges that I currently reload and shoot;Single Shot: 22 K-Hornet, 25-20 S.S., 30 U.S. (30/40 Krag), 38 W.C.F., 38-55, 40-70 Ballard, 40-70 Sharps Straight, 405 W.C.F.
Model 1886: 33 W.C.F.
Model 43: 22 Hornet
Model 70: 22 K-Hornet
Bert
Fun stuff!
Model 1892 and Colt SAA 32 WCF, 38 WCF, 44 WCF
Model 1892 25-20
Model 43 22 Hornet (I also have a Sako in 22 Hornet, but the Model 43 seems more fun).
Model 70 (pre 64) 220 Swift
And a lot more in modern cartridges and firearms that wouldn’t interest the membership here. Luckily, I started stockpiling powder, primers, brass and bullets in about 1981.
Nevada Paul
Life Member NRA
November 7, 2015
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For the 1894 I load for 38-55, 32-40 in addition to the relatively common 30WCF and 32 Special. For the 1892 I load 32-20 and 38-40. My 32-40 loading efforts also feed a Single Shot. Almost forgot about the Model 71 and the 348 Winchester, I also load 35 Remington, 45-70 and 45-90 but have no Winchesters chambered for these rounds. I also cast for all of the above except the 348. Any day now you should be able to read my article about my adventures with a couple of 32-40 Winchester rifles.
Mike
tim tomlinson said
Kirk, I haven’t shot a .45-90 but suppose I could with toilet paper to take up space. Cheers, Kirk! Tim
Yes, that huge long case leaves a lot of empty space with smokeless powder, so I always used a single-ply, single sheet of TP loosely rolled and folded to fill the space, which greatly reduced the extreme spread in velocity. My favourite powders were IMR 4198 and 5744. Stay away from IMR 3031—it is ridiculously position-sensitive. I really enjoyed my old ’86 in that caliber … those huge long rounds made me feel I was levering something serious into the chamber.
I’ll join in. My list of obsolete calibers I shoot in Winchester rifles. I use black powder only, with the bullet lightly seated on it.
Model 1873: .38 WCF, .44 WCF (not exactly obsolete but uncommon)
Model 1876: .40-60 WCF, .45-60 WCF, .45-75 WCF
Kirk, please leave some TP in the outhouse when you are borrowing some to fill your .45-90 cartridges. Or put a Sears catalog in there…
I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder
Kirk and others, Much like Bert, my go to powder with lead is IMR 4198. I’ve done but a little with 5744, and gave up as its unburned granules would fall into the action on my highwall in .38-55. Didn’t need help getting crud in there anyway. Jacketed bullets are another story, with IMR 3031 being my main power n the .405 (its basically a 100% load density proposition). BUT, 3031 is rather temperature sensitive as well. At present I am not willing to try my brain to figure what I do and do not load for in the lever actions. Suffice to say all calibers for the 1894 except the .32 Spec. Many for the 1895, excepting the .40-72 and .38-72. Pretty much have shot all the 1876 calbers, and the 1873 except for the .22 rimfires. Model 1886’s are not as heavily represented. 50 EX, 45-70 of course. .33 Win, and that is what I can think of at the moment. I shoot the .33 Win a LOT in our silhouette shoots, just not this time as I had too few loaded to play with. Cheers! Tim
A little over 20 years ago I did some testing with the 45-90. I used 4759, 4198 and 3031. I got my best results with the 4198. I shot these in an 85 and an 86. I did not do much with them to try to improve accuracy. I did not use any real good bullets (pointed) because of the magazine on the 86. I couldn’t play with seating depth because I had to stay with a round that would cycle in the 86. At that time I didn’t know the importance of neck tension. I also use toilet paper to fill the void in the black powder cases and have never had an issue.
My recent testing with modern rifles has shown me that even with the least temperature sensitive powders I have to use one load for the winter and another for the summer. In the winter I can use 45.3 grains when the temp is in the 50’s to 70’s but in the summer when it is in the 80’s and 90’s I have to back it down to 45.1. My goal is to shoot the best groups. Too slow they don’t group and too fast they don’t group. My Mentor always says “Believe the Target.
I load and shoot over 2 dozen different calibers of the over 40 different calibers that I have. Just don’t want to wear the old guns out.
Chuck, You have a lot of good info there! What shooting I do, with the old levers, likely won’t wear any out as I switch which rifle I am playing with. So no individual (except the 1886 in .33 Win) gets that many rounds through them. I also don’t play the extreme accuracy game with them, rather like you say, a length that feeds properly and hopefully a bullet that fits the groove as nearly as possible. Many can’t do that as then I would ahve to neck ream or something so the bullet with brass thickness will fit the chamber. Needless to say, I go for “easy” as not worth the effort for me. I also noted I do NOT shoot the .35 Win in the model 1895. The .405 provides enough abuse. Tim
tim tomlinson said
Chuck, You have a lot of good info there! What shooting I do, with the old levers, likely won’t wear any out as I switch which rifle I am playing with. So no individual (except the 1886 in .33 Win) gets that many rounds through them. I also don’t play the extreme accuracy game with them, rather like you say, a length that feeds properly and hopefully a bullet that fits the groove as nearly as possible. Many can’t do that as then I would ahve to neck ream or something so the bullet with brass thickness will fit the chamber. Needless to say, I go for “easy” as not worth the effort for me. I also noted I do NOT shoot the .35 Win in the model 1895. The .405 provides enough abuse. Tim
Tim, from what I hear the 35 is just a little less than the 405 on the pain factor scale.
I do the same as you. I bring one out and shoot it a little. Over time I shoot them all. I do have a 45-90 that is not factory correct that I have shot hundreds of rounds through it. No apparent wear. I plan on taking this one to the range soon. A few of the guys are shooting reproduction 45-70’s with black powder at 600 yds. I asked them the other day if I could bring a rifle and have them help me see if I can shoot that far.
Chuck, I surely would enjoy at least trying my hand at longer ranges. Hope your rifle has at least a midrange vernier if not a long range. 600 yards seems to require a lot of elevation. Let me know how you do, please. Tim
Tim if the one on it now is not tall enough I’ll put a taller one on it. I’m really worried that I can’t see that far.
I took the highwall to the range and could hit the 12″ x 12″ target at 100 yards, but not accurately. I could do some load development but since I can’t see exactly where on the target I’m holding it would just be a waste of time and materials. I guess I need a modern reproduction with an antique style scope.
Chuck (and any one else with vision issues), I fully understand! While my eyes are still old with their own issues, I now have the best sight I’ve had in many years after cataract surgery. Lighting is vital and we watch which side of the silhouettes show best for our open sights. Sometimes the white side shows better, sometimes the black. A chicken silhouette at 300 yards can be obscured by the front sight unless sighted to use a 6 o’clock hold, etc. Apertures usually clean up the visibility to at least some extent. But you can’t hit what you can’t see! I don’t try to do any better than minute of chicken anyway. Scopes can help greatly, especially with varying lighting conditions. A front sight that is an aperture also helps, as you automatically tend to center the target and it isn’t obscured by a post, or what ever you have up front. Good luck trying! Tim
I have the same eye problems all us old folks have. I had cataract surgery last fall and it did help for general duties but didn’t help much for distance.
Yes I did get the lenses for distance.
I generally use the ASSRA 200 yd target to shoot with my rifles. At 100yds the front sight aperture covers the 12″ bullseye with out seeing white around it, not very helpful! I have looked but cannot find a 10″ target the would work at 100yds. At 200yds and 300yds the target is nice, with enough white surrounding the black or red center 12 inches. But the target is still blurry and causes me to guess or estimate where to align it in the aperture. I have only shot out to 300yds, the farthest my clubs have to shoot. Besides, any farther than 300yds and a 12″ target would be to small.
The only other option is to custom make your own targets.
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