Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Shooting collector ammunition: 45 Express
Avatar
JC
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 102
Member Since:
February 8, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
November 9, 2022 - 5:44 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory

I have a 45 Ex/45-125 high wall I want to shoot and hunt with.  I have had an order in with RCC Brass since last February and I’m beginning to think I may have to give up on them.  I bought two old original cartridges and wonder : has anyone ever tried shooting the old ammo and reloading the brass or pulling the bullets, dumping the old powder, priming and shooting vintage brass?  Old 45 Ex runs $100 per cartridge but I will be shooting light loads and could get by with 5-10 cases.  Does old brass need annealing?  Is old brass weak in some way?  I’ll mention I’ve shot a lot of mid-20th century rifle and shotgun ammo without any problem over the years.  Yet, original 45 Ex ammunition is WWI era at the latest, I think.

I welcome any informed thoughts based on empirical experience from the members.

Avatar
Bert H.
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 12852
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
November 9, 2022 - 7:28 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I would not shoot any old black powder cartridge, and I would also anneal the brass before reloading it and firing it.

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
clarence
NY
Member
Restricted
Forum Posts: 7119
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
November 9, 2022 - 2:44 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

JC said  Is old brass weak in some way?
  

What are now called “balloon head” cases, in use up to & beyond WW I, are somewhat weaker than modern web-head cases, which have slightly less powder capacity; the reason, for ex., 40g of BP won’t fit in a modern .44-40 case. Confusingly, when balloon heads were first introduced, they were called “solid head” cases to distinguish them from the older folded-head cases. 

If you loaded them with BP (yes, despite the aggravations of shooting it, which I’m all too familiar with), I don’t think you’ll have any trouble.  And probably none with light loads of smokeless, though obtaining good results in such a large case poses its own set of challenges.

Avatar
Chuck
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5800
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
November 9, 2022 - 5:38 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I don’t know if you can use 45-100 or 45-120 but these are in stock.

https://www.northernshooterssupplies.com.au/category-s/416.htm

Avatar
clarence
NY
Member
Restricted
Forum Posts: 7119
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
November 9, 2022 - 9:28 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Chuck said
I don’t know if you can use 45-100 or 45-120 but these are in stock.

https://www.northernshooterssupplies.com.au/category-s/416.htm

  

A case of smaller capacity would improve combustion of smokeless, which is one of the problems of using smokeless in large BP cases.

Avatar
TR
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1880
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
November 10, 2022 - 12:04 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

JC said
I have a 45 Ex/45-125 high wall I want to shoot and hunt with.  I have had an order in with RCC Brass since last February and I’m beginning to think I may have to give up on them.  I bought two old original cartridges and wonder : has anyone ever tried shooting the old ammo and reloading the brass or pulling the bullets, dumping the old powder, priming and shooting vintage brass?

  

 Yes I did and it ended ugly. The balloon brass on a 40-82 cartridge in a really nice 1886 blew. Fire out the top and I didn’t have to trim my eyebrows for awhile. That was 30 years ago and ever since I shoot modern brass with eye protection. Black powder in those old cartridges causes the brass to corrode. T/R

Avatar
Chuck
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5800
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
November 10, 2022 - 7:36 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory

clarence said

Chuck said

I don’t know if you can use 45-100 or 45-120 but these are in stock.

https://www.northernshooterssupplies.com.au/category-s/416.htm

  

A case of smaller capacity would improve combustion of smokeless, which is one of the problems of using smokeless in large BP cases.

  

I never have had a problem because I always use something to keep the powder next to the primer. 

The site I posted says these 45-120 Sharps Strait cases are 3-1/4″ the same as a 45-125.  The rim diameter is a bit smaller, 004″. The bad thing is the Win case is somewhat tapered.

 

I think I would have to figure out how to taper the neck a little to get it to chamber then fire form it.

Avatar
Chuck
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5800
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
November 10, 2022 - 8:34 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory

I found a Saami drawing and the Winchester head space is .063″ to .070″.  

EDIT:  See next couple of posts.

Avatar
Chuck
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5800
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
November 10, 2022 - 9:07 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory

I just found another Saami Dwg for Winchester 45-70.  All Win rimmed cases have the same head space.

This one is different that the first one I found.  This one says .070″ to .077″.

Screenshot-2022-11-10-at-13-02-14-VELOCITY-AND-PRESSURE-DATA-ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf.pngImage Enlarger

 

EDIT:   I went back through my last couple posts and removed my comments about the head space.  I was exactly wrong.  .06″ inches is too thin.

Avatar
JC
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 102
Member Since:
February 8, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
November 11, 2022 - 2:52 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

All: Thanks for your input!  
Regarding the 45 Ex. It is a bottleneck case bigger than the 45-120, unfortunately.  It’s very close to one of the versions of the British 450 BPE in capacity with a slow twist for a 300 grain bullet.  So I believe I’m stuck with waiting on RCC brass or trying my luck with original cases with bullets pulled and deprimed.  I would inspect the brass for erosion from the powder prior.  Has anyone here sectioned a case to see about the erosion or embrittlement?  TR’s experience has given me a lot more thought for caution, for sure.

Avatar
clarence
NY
Member
Restricted
Forum Posts: 7119
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
November 11, 2022 - 3:31 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

JC said  Has anyone here sectioned a case to see about the erosion or embrittlement?  TR’s experience has given me a lot more thought for caution, for sure.
  

Kinda doubt very many cartridge collectors would be eager to do that.  (Except my dear friend “.44 WCF,” who’s no longer here to share his vast knowledge of BP cartridges.)  It’s definitely true that fired BP quickly begins to corrode brass, hence the importance of cleaning cases as soon as possible after firing.  It’s also true that BP left in a cast iron powder measure will cause rust, but that’s due to its hydroscopic action, not a chemical reaction.   TR’s experience has likewise given me a lot more thought for caution, too. 

Avatar
steve004
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5163
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
November 11, 2022 - 12:44 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

It seems there are two issues here.  One is the corrosive impact of black powder sitting in cartridge cases for very large periods of time (e.g. longer than the oldest ones among us have been alive).  And then there is the design of the balloon head cases.  These two factors are typically combined.  An exception would be where a box of empty balloon head cases are found (i.e. never loaded and sold originally as brass).  I would have much more confidence in these – with light loads.  

Avatar
mrcvs
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2192
Member Since:
September 22, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
November 11, 2022 - 1:01 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Black powder is carbon, Sulphur, and potassium nitrate.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder

My understanding is that black powder could last a millennium if kept dry and cool and the salts are created due to the chemical reaction at combustion.  Therefore, a properly loaded round (new case or cleaned reloaded case) should not be corrosive when in the inert (unfired) state, indefinitely.

Avatar
clarence
NY
Member
Restricted
Forum Posts: 7119
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
November 11, 2022 - 1:34 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

mrcvs said

My understanding is that black powder could last a millennium if kept dry and cool and the salts are created due to the chemical reaction at combustion.  Therefore, a properly loaded round (new case or cleaned reloaded case) should not be corrosive when in the inert (unfired) state, indefinitely.

  

That’s my understanding, too, but after TR’s frightening experience, I think I’d still be nervous about using such cases.  Although the SS action is stronger than TR’s ’86.

Avatar
TXGunNut
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6400
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
November 11, 2022 - 5:16 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

clarence said

mrcvs said

My understanding is that black powder could last a millennium if kept dry and cool and the salts are created due to the chemical reaction at combustion.  Therefore, a properly loaded round (new case or cleaned reloaded case) should not be corrosive when in the inert (unfired) state, indefinitely.

  

That’s my understanding, too, but after TR’s frightening experience, I think I’d still be nervous about using such cases.  Although the SS action is stronger than TR’s ’86.

  

Agreed, to me the issue is not necessarily the strength of the action as a case rupture could cause gases to escape from even the SS. Gunpowder’s shelf life depends on how it is stored and old ammunition may not have been stored under ideal conditions.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Board Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Chuck
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5800
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
November 11, 2022 - 6:17 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I’ve taken apart a lot of Henry cartridges and have a bit of old powder.  The problem is I really don’t want to test this in my Henry or 66.   Maybe a light load in a 22 WCF highwall?

Avatar
Bert H.
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 12852
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17
November 11, 2022 - 7:33 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Chuck said
I’ve taken apart a lot of Henry cartridges and have a bit of old powder.  The problem is I really don’t want to test this in my Henry or 66.   Maybe a light load in a 22 WCF highwall?

  

It is highly unlikely you could damage a high-wall with that experiment, but what would it prove?

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Chuck
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5800
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
November 13, 2022 - 8:28 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Well, it would show that 100+ year old black powder will or will not go off.  I dumped all of the powder into 1 container so maybe some of it is still good?

Avatar
clarence
NY
Member
Restricted
Forum Posts: 7119
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
November 14, 2022 - 12:13 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Chuck said
Well, it would show that 100+ year old black powder will or will not go off.  I dumped all of the powder into 1 container so maybe some of it is still good?

  

The weak link in the chain is the primer compound (probably mercury fulminate), which isn’t as stable as BP.  If the primer is still live, & the cartridge undamaged, there’s no reason to think it won’t fire. Potassium chlorate primers replaced fulminate because it was more stable, though corrosive.

Avatar
tim tomlinson
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 882
Member Since:
September 19, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20
November 14, 2022 - 2:18 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Folks, I finally have to put in my two cents worth here.  First, understand it gets rather humid here, and most folks didn’t have air conditioning around my small town, until probably the 1970s or so.  Thus storage conditions were often not ideal.  Having said that, my 84 year old buddy rescued a cartridge collection put together by a significantly older gentleman upon said person’s death.  Bernie still has many of those old, original cartridges but now they are in environmentally controlled space.  For all that, several of the old cartridges have tiny pin holes all the way through the brass.  At least in the approx 60 years Bernie has had them, they have not been cleaned on the outside, so the perforations are seemingly from the inside (powder side) to the outside.  My assumption is they drew moisture into the powder and then corroded the brass enough to perforate.  I would think this would perhaps happen to some extent on many original cartridges not maintained all their lives in controlled environments.  Add in the instability of the mercuric based primers, I would not ever try shooting the originals as the brass may not hold up and allow severe gas leakage if the primers actually worked.  Pulling the cartridges down and carefully viewing the inside of the brass may negate problems, but I wouldn’t care to bet my eyebrows on it.   (or beard!)  Tim  PS. I have old brass that had been inside primed .45-70 Gov blanks recovered off a field at Ft. Huachcua, AZ that have merely turned nearly black from the alkaline soil.  One was still loaded, with the cardboard wad at the mouth gone.  Powder seemed good, etc.  AZ is rather low humidity though! 

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 4623
Currently Online: Manuel, Thomas Beckwith, Edward Kitner, SureShot
Guest(s) 182
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 7119
TXGunNut: 6400
Chuck: 5800
steve004: 5163
1873man: 4693
deerhunter: 2692
Big Larry: 2547
twobit: 2491
mrcvs: 2192
Maverick: 2025
Newest Members:
Lambeau
Larsmack
usmc1978
Otisman68
Deaf Smith
Texasaggie19
Diego
Bkmkok
Leonardb
Skysquatch82
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 18
Topics: 14701
Posts: 131508

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 2057
Members: 9973
Moderators: 3
Admins: 4
Administrators: Mike Hager, Bert H., JWA, SethJ
Moderators: Rob Kassab, Brad Dunbar, Heather
Navigation