Log In
November 7, 2015
Offline
I’ve been spending way too much time in my room where the magic happens but between my reloading projects and moving in a comfortable reading chair I shouldn’t be surprised. My loading manuals and loading records are all within easy reach. One of my first Winchesters was a 670 that lost a bit of rifling after several thousand rounds of teaching me how to reload and shoot. A gentleman whose name I believe is Jessie Ocumpah rebored and chambered it to 35 Whelen for me over 12 years ago and I glass bedded the barreled action into a nice Boyd walnut stock. It never shot as well as it did as a 30-06 and my lead bullet hunting loads had to be cast of very hard lead and performed poorly on S Texas deer. I subsequently lost interest in this nice old rifle. I’ve been re-reading what Ken Waters wrote about the 35 Whelen recently and have decided to take another stab at it. While I was perusing the load data and the components I had on hand I wondered if Winchester ever chambered a rifle for Col. Whelen’s 35 caliber version of the 30-06 Guvmint.
I realize the 35 Whelen was a wildcat cartridge while the pre-64’s M70’s were being produced but it was a pretty popular wildcat prior to (R-word) legitimizing it in 87 or 88.
Mike
November 5, 2014
Offline
Hi Mike-
Going off memory (a dangerous thing), back in the 1917-19 period when Winchester R&D was working on the “E” Model that became the M51 Imperial, they planned to build rifles in 35 Newton, as well as a .40 Cal version of the Newton cartridge. The latter never panned out R&D-wise, but I think that a couple of the (24) M51 Imperials were made in 35 Newton. The other fruit of that project was that they successfully developed what became the 270 WCF from the 30 GOV’T’06.
In the Model 54 (1925 onwards), for some unknown reason they did offer barrels in 32 Special, even though they did not catalog rifles/carbines in that chambering. I believe that I’ve seen 32 WCF M54 barrels in the Parts catalogs. Of course this was during the period that they were manufacturing the M54 rifle and carbine in 30 WCF. OTOH… The 35 WHELEN was not mentioned… That said, I think there are a couple well-documented M54 rifles in 35 WHELEN. Not surprising given Col. Whelen’s stature at the time.
As for the M70, there were probably also a couple built in 35 WHELEN, but they too would have been special orders. I’ve seen several, but I believe them to be fakes. After all, if you can re-bore/rifle a 30 GOV’T’06 and change the barrel marking it would be an easy “project”…
Perhaps BoRich will weigh in as he has the one 35 WHELEN M70 that I know of that could very well be legit. Three-digit gun, recorded by Bob Porter, etc.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
November 7, 2015
Offline
Thanks, Lou!
I suppose the M54 is a more likely platform for the 35 Whelen, hadn’t occurred to me but given the timeframe I suppose it should have. I don’t feel old but I certainly act that way from time to time just to get used to the idea. Maybe one of our catalog gurus will chime in. I know the (R-word) manufacturers jumped on the bandwagon after a version of the cartridge was legitimized as I had a Model 77 for awhile and the other (R-word) gun builder legitimized the cartridge. Other than some big wild boars we don’t have anything in Texas that needs that much killing so we don’t see rifles chambered in 35 Whelen, most hunters around here have never heard of it. Other than re-bored 30-06’s I haven’t encountered any older examples but given the nearly significant interest in the 35 Whelen where moose and big bears roam.
Mike
November 19, 2006
Offline
Louis Luttrell said
Hi Mike-
Going off memory (a dangerous thing), back in the 1917-19 period when Winchester R&D was working on the “E” Model that became the M51 Imperial, they planned to build rifles in 35 Newton, as well as a .40 Cal version of the Newton cartridge. The latter never panned out R&D-wise, but I think that a couple of the (24) M51 Imperials were made in 35 Newton. The other fruit of that project was that they successfully developed what became the 270 WCF from the 30 GOV’T’06.
In the Model 54 (1925 onwards), for some unknown reason they did offer barrels in 32 Special, even though they did not catalog rifles/carbines in that chambering. I believe that I’ve seen 32 WCF M54 barrels in the Parts catalogs. Of course this was during the period that they were manufacturing the M54 rifle and carbine in 30 WCF. OTOH… The 35 WHELEN was not mentioned… That said, I think there are a couple well-documented M54 rifles in 35 WHELEN. Not surprising given Col. Whelen’s stature at the time.
As for the M70, there were probably also a couple built in 35 WHELEN, but they too would have been special orders. I’ve seen several, but I believe them to be fakes. After all, if you can re-bore/rifle a 30 GOV’T’06 and change the barrel marking it would be an easy “project”…
Perhaps BoRich will weigh in as he has the one 35 WHELEN M70 that I know of that could very well be legit. Three-digit gun, recorded by Bob Porter, etc.
Best,
Lou
I found the above information fascinating. I was unaware. I have been aware of one of two M54’s in .32 Special but they were suspicious. It is interesting to know that there were some original specimens, or perhaps a Winchester manufactured parts barrel was added. VERY COOL! Thanks Lou!
August 8, 2024
Offline
There is a picture of a .35 Whelen barrel marking in the Model 54 section of the Rule book. I have owned my Model 70 three digit S/N Type 1-1 .35 Whelen Standard Grade rifle for around 30 years now. A friend of mine informed me that he recently purchased a Model 54 Carbine in .35 Whelen. I have not seen that rifle yet. But, look forward to seeing it the next time I visit him. I agree that the Model 54 would be a more likely platform for the .35 Whelen. I would feel a lot better with an original Model 70 chambered in .35 Whelen to have been made very early in production. Recently the last few Model 70s that I have seen chambered in .35 Whelen l have had concerns with. The barrel markings were in question, and the finish was off.
Remember that even though it was a wild cat cartridge. It was very popular when the Model 54 was produced, and when the Model 70 began production. I have read many Alaskan brown Bear books from that period that recommend it for those Bruts.
November 19, 2006
Offline
I shoot a .35 Whelen Improved in a custom rifle built on a Mauser 98 action. It is a very fine and versatile cartridge. Particularly for a handloader. Everything from jacketed pistol bullets, .35 Remington bullets and on up to the 250 grain premium bullets – except for some of the Dark Continent beasts, there’s not much you can’t do with this cartridge.
August 27, 2014
Offline
Imho chasing Winchesters in uncatalogued calibers and configurations is a Fool’s Errand…ymmv
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
August 8, 2024
Offline
Tedk, A Fool? Well maybe, or perhaps a man with great wisdom.
March 31, 2009
Offline
I don’t know but I am always looking for things that Winchester made but did not catalog. Especially cartridges.
November 7, 2015
Offline
Thanks, Bo! Good reason to re-visit the Rule book.
I was reading about the improved version of the 35 Whelen, Steve. I think if I were to go down that road today I would give very serious thought to that chambering if Jessie had the reamer. I really don’t need the extra case capacity but the other benefits would be tempting. I have some Hornady 200gr roundnose bullets on the shelf from a 35Rem project a few decades ago (ouch!). Do you have any experience with that bullet? I’m on a kick using stuff that’s been sitting around waaaaay to long. My only 35Rem these days is a Contender and it much prefers the 180gr spire point Hornady offering. I have a fair but of 3031 powder on the shelf as well.
Ted, have you noticed fools always seem to be smiling? I love a good laugh and smiles improve my day. We have enough grim days so I’m always open to amusement. I don’t intend to seek out a M70 or M54 in 35 Whelen but the possible existence of genuine examples interested and amused me. The 35 Whelen is an interesting cartridge and the M54 and M70 are interesting rifles. I couldn’t resist asking the question that came to my feeble (and possibly foolish) mind. I certainly appreciate the very interesting replies above even though they have indicated the need for more research on my part. Kinda sounds like fun.
Mike
August 27, 2014
Offline
Bo Rich said
Tedk, A Fool? Well maybe, or perhaps a man with great wisdom.
Bo, actually speaking from personal experience and kind of referring to myself as I’ve owned a few Winchester unicorns over the years. Like to think that I’ve learned my lessons
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
March 31, 2009
Offline
Speaking of unicorns, Winchester made a bunch of 86’s in odd calibers. There are about 22 calibers that were produced and never cataloged. All of these have had at least 1 gun made and are in the Ledgers. 20 of the 22 had less than 10 made. There are 9 that there was only 1 rifle made.
Where did these go? Wouldn’t it be fun to find one!
August 8, 2024
Offline
TXGunNut, I have used the Hornady 200 SP in my .35 Remington with very good results. I remember reading a Jack O’Connor article about loading the 200 grain round nose soft point made for the .35 Remington in a .35 Whelen. Jack stated that it was the most vicious bullet that he has used. A neck shot on a deer would about decapitate the animal.
September 22, 2011
Online
Chuck said
Speaking of unicorns, Winchester made a bunch of 86’s in odd calibers. There are about 22 calibers that were produced and never cataloged. All of these have had at least 1 gun made and are in the Ledgers. 20 of the 22 had less than 10 made. There are 9 that there was only 1 rifle made.
Where did these go? Wouldn’t it be fun to find one!
Can you start a new thread about this and list the 22 calibers?
November 7, 2015
Offline
Bo Rich said
TXGunNut, I have used the Hornady 200 SP in my .35 Remington with very good results. I remember reading a Jack O’Connor article about loading the 200 grain round nose soft point made for the .35 Remington in a .35 Whelen. Jack stated that it was the most vicious bullet that he has used. A neck shot on a deer would about decapitate the animal.
I haven’t been hunting for a few years but I suspect the Hornady RN bullet may be a bit too lightly constructed for normal 35 Whelen velocities. I’ll need to look into that if I take it hunting. I like putting a smackdown on a big hog every chance I get and prefer a bullet that stays together and penetrates at less-than-optimal angles. It’s been quite awhile since I worked up my 35Rem hunting load for the Contender but I suspect the short 14 (12)” barrel had something to do with its preference for the 180 spire point. My 35Rem rifle projects involved cast bullets, never got around to trying J-words. I have some 35 Whelen cases that need to be emptied so I can re-visit this cartridge. If I stumble across a M70 in 35 Whelen I’ll need to borrow someone’s checkbook!
Mike
1 Guest(s)
