How hard can you push a 30-30 based case?|Winchester Hunting, Shooting & Reloading|Forum|Winchester Collector

I agree with Mike.  The pressure will show up first when opening the bolt.  Most people can’t tell what too flat is.  If you have too much headspace the primers may start backing out.  If you are going to try this bullet, do as Barnes says but start low and work up.  Every loading manual has some level of safety built into their loads. 

At the risk of sounding like Chicken Little,  i’m going to say what I think anyway: 

1. A rear-locking, single lug, exposed hammer lever action rifle is not a safe instrument for velocity-seeking handloading experiments, particularly one 84 years old with a “pretty good” (possibly rough?) bore.  If you blow a primer or the case lets go, you risk a face full of high pressure gas and metal fragments that even shooting glasses may not keep from your eyes.  In a worst case you will get all or part of the firing pin through your skull. You can also lose fingers of your shooting hand. None of that is speculation.

2. There have been far too many controlled experiments by responsible independent labs that conclusively demonstrate the following are dangerously unreliable breech pressure indicators. (Why? Because there are too many variables.):

A. Post-firing primer condition.

B. Hard extraction or “sticky bolt lift”.

C. Measurement of case body at some precise location by a “tenths” capable micrometer. 

In controlled studies, exactly none of these reliably and consistently gave a safe warning that the load fired was about to exceed a safe breech pressure. THE RESULTS OF INCREASING LOAD STRINGS WERE NON-LINEAR. 

It doesn’t matter what you’ve been doing for fifty years and gotten away with it. 

A disease of handloaders is working up untested loads with an eye on the chronograph and guessing at breech pressure. It can get you killed or badly hurt. All too many handloaders are shooting proof loads and get away with it in modern bolt action rifles. 

Even reliable, pressure tested, current manual data, using the identical components, can result in an overload well before you reach the listed maximum number of grains. A tight or short chamber, extra-hot primer batch, twenty other non-apparent differences. It is an irreduceable risk of handloading.

What engineers in controlled tests have provably done to a Remington 700 and a Weatherby Mark V without harm will take your breath away. A Winchester 94 is not capable of withstanding a tiny fraction of such abuse. 

What I think you are proposing to do, if I understand you correctly, is dangerous to yourself and an innocent Winchester.  If I offend you, I’m sorry but perhaps you will consider my advice anyway.

Another thing to consider is we can’t possibly know what abuse a given rifle has endured in the last several decades. Will a new rifle survive one overpressure load? Probably. Will a vintage rifle survive one more overpressure load? I don’t want to know. Shooting the old guns we love carries certain risks and I won’t push my luck. 

I hope you don’t feel like we’re picking on you, Clinkerclint. It’s just that other folks reading this thread may want to try something like this and we need to make sure the message gets through. 

Mike

I have never handloaded a .25-35 round.  However, I have experience loading the .25-36 round (but that rifle is in another brand ).

Anyway, my main bullet for my .25-36 is the 117 grain Hornady round nose.  My rifle shoots well with that load.

I have on hand some Remington 100 grain PTSP bullets.  I tried them out of curiosity – knowing of course I would not be putting more than one in the magazine. 

Accuracy was disappointing.

Trying some initial loads with your chosen bullet, that won’t be pushing the 30-30 case, should provide an early clue as to how accurate your bullets will be.  

My wild speculation is your bullets will not provide adequate accuracy.  I’d be happy to learn otherwise.

Even if your bullet proves accurate, as other have suggested, I have doubts the bullet will perform as it is designed to perform with other higher intensity .25 caliber rifles.  I understand that this is the point behind your quest to maximize the intensity of the .30-30 case as you realize these bullets need velocity to have a chance of performing as they were designed.

I’ll be interested in hearing how your project works out. 

Zebulon said
At the risk of sounding like Chicken Little,  i’m going to say what I think anyway: 
1. A rear-locking, single lug, exposed hammer lever action rifle is not a safe instrument for velocity-seeking handloading experiments, particularly one 84 years old with a “pretty good” (possibly rough?) bore.  If you blow a primer or the case lets go, you risk a face full of high pressure gas and metal fragments that even shooting glasses may not keep from your eyes.  In a worst case you will get all or part of the firing pin through your skull. You can also lose fingers of your shooting hand. None of that is speculation.
2. There have been far too many controlled experiments by responsible independent labs that conclusively demonstrate the following are dangerously unreliable breech pressure indicators. (Why? Because there are too many variables.):
A. Post-firing primer condition.
B. Hard extraction or “sticky bolt lift”.
C. Measurement of case body at some precise location by a “tenths” capable micrometer. 
In controlled studies, exactly none of these reliably and consistently gave a safe warning that the load fired was about to exceed a safe breech pressure. THE RESULTS OF INCREASING LOAD STRINGS WERE NON-LINEAR. 
It doesn’t matter what you’ve been doing for fifty years and gotten away with it. 
A disease of handloaders is working up untested loads with an eye on the chronograph and guessing at breech pressure. It can get you killed or badly hurt. All too many handloaders are shooting proof loads and get away with it in modern bolt action rifles. 
Even reliable, pressure tested, current manual data, using the identical components, can result in an overload well before you reach the listed maximum number of grains. A tight or short chamber, extra-hot primer batch, twenty other non-apparent differences. It is an irreduceable risk of handloading.
What engineers in controlled tests have provably done to a Remington 700 and a Weatherby Mark V without harm will take your breath away. A Winchester 94 is not capable of withstanding a tiny fraction of such abuse. 
What I think you are proposing to do, if I understand you correctly, is dangerous to yourself and an innocent Winchester.  If I offend you, I’m sorry but perhaps you will consider my advice anyway.
  

Zeb, you make excellent points.  But all I see is that he proposes to use a bullet that does not have load data. It is way shorter/lighter than a standard 25-35 bullet.  I think Barnes gave him good advice.  They want him to use a load for a 90 grain bullet which would be less powder normally used for a lighter 80 grain bullet.  Everyone that shoots an old Winchester lever action should be concerned about all that you have said.  I’ve been going on for some time now that none of us know the chamber pressures we are getting and speed is not a perfect indicator. 

With very few exceptions I will not assemble a cartridge if there is not a published load for the components I’m using. Barnes and other mono bullets are very different from conventional jacketed and cast bullets so SWAG-ing with data from conventional bullets is a bad idea. It’s not only safety considerations, sometimes it just doesn’t work. Someday our smart phones may be able to function as a ballistics lab but we’re not there yet.

Mike

Zebulon said
John D. said

Which begs the question, when should you stop if you’re not getting the velocity you’re looking for. 
  

RE: the bolded sentence – That’s where a chronograph can be useful.  Assuming you’re staying in the min-max published range, when the velocity starts to go flat as you increment the powder charge, you’re pretty much done.
  

Assuming we are talking about our Winchesters and other guns of this period, I don’t want to go over the Factory feet per second.  That’s why I have never loaded anything without a Chronograph. In this case where there isn’t the exact bullet and powder combination you need to check as many loading manuals that you can and make an educated guess and then reduce the load and work up.   Heavy bullets will cause more pressure and you use less powder.  Lighter bullets create less pressure and usually you use more powder.   That’s why Barnes said to use the data for a heavier bullet.  I recommend starting 5 to 10% lower and work up.

I think we can all agree that:

1. Load development (loading a combination of components for which no pressure-tested formula is available) of any cartridge requires a chronograph. It’s not an optional luxury.

2. To begin load development, gather as many published formulae as are available for similar component combinations, adjusting your proposed starting load for adverse factors like a rough bore, different bullet bearing surface, differences in burn rate of current batches of same powder in formulae from old manuals, etc. How much to adjust is a SWAG. It’s on you. 

3. In load development for antique rifles, either load blackpowder or do not exceed historical blackpowder factory ammunition velocities. (Recognize that smokeless velocities do not correlate with breech pressures in a linear fashion. Some nitrocellulose powders will produce for a given bullet/case/primer combination a historical factory black powder velocity only at unacceptable breech pressure. This is a risk you assume in smokeless load development for antique rifles designed only for black.)

4. If you are loading to a published formula, once you reach the published maximum velocity for the component combination formulated,  you should stop, even though (a) you have not reached the maximum published charge; and (b) case extraction is easy and the fired primer shows no indications of excess breech pressure. 

5. Consider the source before employing a load formula published on the Web:

Q.  “Hey, how much Thunderbolt 455 should I load in my 45/70 behind a 400 grain bullet?”  

A. ” Aw, Jimmy Joe he loads 112 grains and I usually go 3 grains more. 

Q. “You sure?  That’s a lot!”

A. “Naw it ain’t. Jimmy nailed a big old hawg with it ‘las week. It’s fine.

NB:  Q is loading for his original, immaculate Springfield trap door Officer’s Model. Whereas, A and his brother Jimmy Joe share a 1979 D.O.M. Marlin Model 1895.