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Bert H. said
There are indeed several other Models that have a sizable number of intentionally faked specimens out there in market… e.g. the Models 43, 55, 64, 65, 70, and 71 just to name a few. For all but the Model 70, I have documented dozens of intentionally altered/faked rifles.
Bert
Bert,
Did you happen to catalog who the sellers were for the fake/altered guns???? It would be VERY interesting if they were the same as those pushing some of the 61’s.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
November 7, 2015
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This morning I talked to a pretty serious collector (and occasional lurker) who told me he absolutely won’t buy a high condition 61 in the gallery or smoothbore configurations. What bothers me about these 61’s is that they seem to be so difficult to detect by visual examination. Seems to me most of the other fakes can be easily spotted by an experienced eye.
Mike
TXGunNut said
This morning I talked to a pretty serious collector (and occasional lurker) who told me he absolutely won’t buy a high condition 61 in the gallery or smoothbore configurations. What bothers me about these 61’s is that they seem to be so difficult to detect by visual examination. Seems to me most of the other fakes can be easily spotted by an experienced eye.Mike
That’s basically what I was implying. I did not mean to imply that other models aren’t faked as well as that is certainly not the case.
twobit said
Bert,
Did you happen to catalog who the sellers were for the fake/altered guns???? It would be VERY interesting if they were the same as those pushing some of the 61’s.
Michael
I know who the sellers/dealers are for about 50% of the fake guns. That stated, many of the fakes have been listed in auction houses (e.g. RIA), and they will not tell me who the consignor was. Some of the fakes were being sold by specific dealers/sellers, and I know who they are. That stated, I do not believe any of them are related to the fake Model 61s you are finding.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Chuck Ellison said
Where do these OB’s come from?
I’m late to this conversation but, assuming you are asking where the original barrels are coming from, that is what intrigues me.
Because those barrels pass muster with so many astute collectors, there are only three possible sources I can think of:
- Original barrels from WRA parts inventories left over when manufacture of the gun ceased, sold as surplus to obsolete parts dealers. The unique parts of the least popular styles of the gun were likely to have been left over and sold in greater numbers as surplus.
- Surplus original barrels manufactured for other model guns but adaptable to the more sought-after gun in question.
- Newly manufactured barrels made, finished and falsely marked with a very high degree of accuracy.
- Used barrels pulled off other model guns and restored and falsely re-marked.
I remember reading something the late Ron Stadt wrote in his book on Winchester shotguns and shotshells. He asserted that, if a gun were properly processed by a sufficiently skilled craftsman, it would be impossible to determine with complete accuracy whether the bluing was original or redone. This statement wounded a lot of egos but Ron was a hands-on industrial scholar and teacher with a very reputable doctorate, in addition to being an advanced Winchester collector. Ron was not talking about shade tree blacksmiths.
The art World is where the really big money changes hands. Therein thrive fakers of consummate skill for whom the “Advanced [and wealthy] Collector Whose Eye Cannot Be Fooled” is his natural and frequent prey. It is the latter’s ego that provides the leverage.
Among the higher virtues, Humility is also an underrated fraud prevention tool.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015
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Bill-
It is quite plausible that one of the reasons some of these fakes are nearly impossible to detect is that they use factory parts in their manufacture, including surplus barrels. Fakers are indeed good and getting better. The late John Kopec noted that after he called out an incorrect marking on a high end fake Colt the faker corrected his mistake in future projects. I agree with Ron Stadt, experts can be fooled and undoubtedly have been. If you’re going to play in that ballpark you have to be very good but expect to lose now and then. Even the World Series champs get beaten dozens of times a season.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Bill-It is quite plausible that one of the reasons some of these fakes are nearly impossible to detect is that they use factory parts in their manufacture, including surplus barrels. Fakers are indeed good and getting better. The late John Kopec noted that after he called out an incorrect marking on a high end fake Colt the faker corrected his mistake in future projects. I agree with Ron Stadt, experts can be fooled and undoubtedly have been. If you’re going to play in that ballpark you have to be very good but expect to lose now and then. Even the World Series champs get beaten dozens of times a season.
Mike
This is exactly why I like playing in the mid-level “shooter-but-still-collectible” sandbox…not only are they affordable, some age and wear makes them easier to determine authenticity in most cases. I do get the argument for putting all your eggs in one or two baskets, but not for me. I’ll take the 5 “kind of nice” rifles over one super nice one that drives its price into the tens of thousands.
Jeremy P said
TXGunNut said
Bill-
It is quite plausible that one of the reasons some of these fakes are nearly impossible to detect is that they use factory parts in their manufacture, including surplus barrels. Fakers are indeed good and getting better. The late John Kopec noted that after he called out an incorrect marking on a high end fake Colt the faker corrected his mistake in future projects. I agree with Ron Stadt, experts can be fooled and undoubtedly have been. If you’re going to play in that ballpark you have to be very good but expect to lose now and then. Even the World Series champs get beaten dozens of times a season.
Mike
This is exactly why I like playing in the mid-level “shooter-but-still-collectible” sandbox…not only are they affordable, some age and wear makes them easier to determine authenticity in most cases. I do get the argument for putting all your eggs in one or two baskets, but not for me. I’ll take the 5 “kind of nice” rifles over one super nice one that drives its price into the tens of thousands.
That has been my collecting philosophy for the past 30-years. That is not to say that I do not have several very high condition pieces, but that is not what I strive to collect. What I did do more than 25-years ago, was to stop buying any guns that needed repair work or fixing to make them whole again.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I do not like mint guns. 95% is good enough. I have some minty handguns, but I cannot shoot them. I don’t shoot many of my guns as if you have shot one M94, you have shot them all. I have known a few fakers in my day. Right now, we are trying to determine the authenticity of a 1945 Colt ACE with the JSB inspector. A certain faker was making these guns and selling them. On todays market, they are going for well over $10,000. Anyone can be fooled. Big Larry
November 7, 2015
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Big Larry, you have some beautiful guns any of us would be proud to own. I love the 60-70% guns in a price range no one would bother to fake. They often have issues but I enjoy sorting them out. With the help of Bert, Larry Shennum and a few of the other smart folks around here I’ve focused my recent efforts on 80% or better guns. They generally don’t have the character of the guns I started out collecting (and still have a weakness for!) but they hold or increase in value and are much easier to sell if/when the time comes. I don’t need any more shooters but the 80-90% guns are generally excellent shooters and I’m not afraid to shoot them. These rare guns in excellent or better condition are fun to look at, and I’ve had a few, but quite honestly I am better off as a spectator. I wish the fakers would find somewhere else to ply their trade, really takes to fun out of our affliction knowing someone could spend serious money for a fake gun worth a fraction of the purchase price.
Mike
Same here….I’ve worked on a few now to solve a problem keeping them from firing…SO FAR they’ve been fun to figure out and fix for very little cost of effort. I’m enjoying it!
Mike, it doesn’t matter the subject area. If money is involved there are those who fake it! Including the money itself. And it DOES take a lot of the fun out of any hobby. Example, I used to attend MoPars on the Mississippi. I swear there were more Hemi ‘Cuda’s than Chrysler ever built! Naturally everyone of them had a proper tag and owner who swore on a stack of Bibles HIS was the real deal! One year there were two at the show and each had the identical VIN. ONE obviously was a fake, but which if not both? The 1 of 1000 have that as well. Which is the real one? Tim
November 7, 2015
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tim tomlinson said
Mike, it doesn’t matter the subject area. If money is involved there are those who fake it! Including the money itself. And it DOES take a lot of the fun out of any hobby. Example, I used to attend MoPars on the Mississippi. I swear there were more Hemi ‘Cuda’s than Chrysler ever built! Naturally everyone of them had a proper tag and owner who swore on a stack of Bibles HIS was the real deal! One year there were two at the show and each had the identical VIN. ONE obviously was a fake, but which if not both? The 1 of 1000 have that as well. Which is the real one? Tim
I’ve seen some interesting Fords as well, back before anyone with a smart phone could decode a Ford VIN I ruffled some feathers from time to time because as a result of my profession I could decode most pre-81 Ford VIN’s on sight and understood all the other info on the VIN plate. I was also able to help at a chop shop raid until the NATB VIN expert showed up, he REALLY knew his stuff. We also recovered a stolen Bronco from the Bandidos that had an F150 VIN plate. They even had the correct rivets on the VIN plate. They also had a stamp that made a very good “hourglass 8” for Harley VIN’s.
Tying this in to earlier threads the incredible prices being paid for certain firearms (and other items) and the casual level of scrutiny will only encourage more fakes. Some will be easy to spot, some will go undetected unless someone finds an earlier listing for the same gun before it was transformed.
Mike
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