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The Model 1885 Winder Muskets by Bert Hartman
March 16, 2021
5:54 pm
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What a great read and research by our very own Bert Hartman. I’m posting this because I couldn’t find it on this rimfire thread & valuable information for the Winchester 22 rimfire collector.

https://surplused.com/index.php/2020/05/15/the-model-1885-winder-muskets/

March 16, 2021
6:15 pm
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RickC said
What a great read and research by our very own Bert Hartman. I’m posting this because I couldn’t find it on this rimfire thread & valuable information for the Winchester 22 rimfire collector.

https://surplused.com/index.php/2020/05/15/the-model-1885-winder-muskets/  

Rick,

It was published in the WACA Winter 2010 Collector magazine…

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March 16, 2021
6:21 pm
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Thanks for sharing Bert. I’ll check it out in the Collector as well.

RickC

March 17, 2021
2:50 am
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Thanks, Rick. Great reference article, Bert, quite frankly I need to read it again. Lots of really good info that means more now that I’ve had the opportunity to study a few examples and read what other authors have to say. 

 

Mike

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March 17, 2021
3:38 am
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Because this topic has resurfaced, the table below shows the current numbers I have in the survey;

Variation & Cartridge Survey Totals and Percentages
Variation 22 LONG R. 22 SHORT 22 LONG Other 22 ? Total
Winder Musket (1st var.) 1,864 74 67 8 7 2,020
% of Total 92.28% 3.66% 3.32% 0.40% 0.35% 47.81%
             
Winder Musket (2nd var.) 422 139 0 5 32 598
% of Total 70.57% 23.24% 0.00% 0.84% 5.35% 14.15%
             
Model 87 55 256 5 6 19 341
% of Total 16.13% 75.07% 1.47% 1.76% 5.57% 8.07%
             
Model 87 (U.S. marked) 1 1,265 0 0 0 1,266
% of Total 0.08% 99.92% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 29.96%
             
Totals 2,342 1,734 72 19 58 4,225
% of Total 55.42% 41.03% 1.70% 0.45% 1.37%  

I am still actively looking for more Winder Muskets to add to the survey.

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March 17, 2021
6:50 am
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Bert can you advise what the “other” calibre is or what they are in the 2nd variation model & what the 22? is.

Thanks
RickC

March 17, 2021
1:57 pm
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RickC said
Bert can you advise what the “other” calibre is or what they are in the 2nd variation model & what the 22? is.

Thanks
RickC  

The “Other” category includes the following;

1st Var:  (4) made in 22 WRF, and (4) made in 22 WCF.

2nd Var:  (1) made in 25-20 S.S., (1) made in 32 WCF, (2) made in 25-20 WCF, and (1) in 45-70.

Model 87:  (1) in 25-20 WCF, and (5) with factory 22 Hornet barrels installed after 1930.

The “22 ?” column indicates an unknown/unverified 22 rim fire cartridge.  In explanation, over the past many years I found (58) old auction listings by searching the internet where the auction house listing simply stated “22 rim fire”.  I have no way of determining which specific 22 rim fire ctg it was (e.g. 22 Short or 22 Long Rifle), but based on the serial number and limited pictures, I was able to ID which variation Winder Musket it was.

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March 17, 2021
2:23 pm
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Thanks Bert. Appreciate the info. I always considered the 1885 Winder musket a .22 rim fire only model but as often found, Winchester would build whatever the customer requested if it was doable.

RickC

March 17, 2021
3:55 pm
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Thus far, at least (10) of them were originally made in center fire cartridges (a very tiny percentage as compared to those in .22 rim fire). I have been fortunate enough to actually see and inspect three of them (could have bought two of them and didn’t because I was unaware of just how rare they were at the time).

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March 17, 2021
4:08 pm
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March 18, 2021
2:46 pm
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Bert H. said
Thus far, at least (10) of them were originally made in center fire cartridges (a very tiny percentage as compared to those in .22 rim fire). I have been fortunate enough to actually see and inspect three of them (could have bought two of them and didn’t because I was unaware of just how rare they were at the time).  

Yes a center fire is rare now that the total numbers in the survey at least have been identified. Something for me to chase Bert. Thanks…I think!

RickC

March 18, 2021
3:41 pm
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RickC said
Here’s a few pics of mine in 22 Long R. 2nd variation model. Made in 1913

24EFCBF3-14B9-439F-9E73-29162432EF56.jpegImage Enlarger

  

Can’t tell for sure without seeing the top of it, but looks like the M1901 Krag sight.  Much better positioned on the brl then it was on the Krag, where it was too far forward for best use of the aperture.

Once had a sporting model HW .22, but loading it got to be too much of a nuisance.  For that reason, those used in serious competition sometimes had the right side-wall milled down.

March 18, 2021
4:06 pm
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This is the rear sight that’s on it Clarence. I believe they’re Krag.

922E0E9D-DAB1-436E-80B2-338D98621C2F.jpegImage Enlarger

March 18, 2021
4:48 pm
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RickC said
This is the rear sight that’s on it Clarence. I believe they’re Krag.

  

There were 4 Krag different sights–this, the M1901, was the best of them.

March 18, 2021
4:51 pm
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Rick,

Almost all of the 2nd variation Winder Muskets were outfitted with a Krag Model 1901 rear sight. The 2nd variation was an improvement over the 1st variation because of the new (revised) location of the rear sight.

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March 18, 2021
5:55 pm
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I am still actively looking for more Winder Muskets to add to the survey.

 

Had I sent you 120371 and 126931? Thought I had but can’t find the message…

March 18, 2021
8:23 pm
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freebird1968 said
I am still actively looking for more Winder Muskets to add to the survey.

 
Had I sent you 120371 and 126931? Thought I had but can’t find the message…  

I do not have S/N 120371 listed in my survey.  Is it a 2nd variation, or a 3rd variation (it could be either one based on the serial number). Which specific .22 cartridge is it chambered for? Pictures ?

I do have 126931 listed, a U.S. ordnance marked 3rd variation (Model 87), listed with a shortened (cut-down) forestock.

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March 18, 2021
9:09 pm
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126931 (as I bought it) was a full length forearm 3rd variation in .22S, military marked.

 

120371 is a 2nd variation in .22S

 

Image Enlarger

Image Enlarger

If you would like any more photos, I can send them to your adress (or open a specific topic here, as best suits you)

March 18, 2021
9:13 pm
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freebird1968 said
126931 (as I bought it) was a full length forearm 3rd variation in .22S, military marked.

 

120371 is a 2nd variation in .22S

 

Image Enlarger

Image Enlarger

If you would like any more photos, I can send them to your adress (or open a specific topic here, as best suits you)  

Thanks for update and pictures.  Somebody apparently replaced the forend stock on your Model 87 before selling it to you.

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March 19, 2021
7:20 am
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I imported both guns from Germany, and have no clue as to their history.

Did you list 126931 from the ledger or from an external source? Has it been despatched with a shortened forearm (if such a thing happened) or cut down later?

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