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What a great read and research by our very own Bert Hartman. I’m posting this because I couldn’t find it on this rimfire thread & valuable information for the Winchester 22 rimfire collector.
https://surplused.com/index.php/2020/05/15/the-model-1885-winder-muskets/
RickC said
What a great read and research by our very own Bert Hartman. I’m posting this because I couldn’t find it on this rimfire thread & valuable information for the Winchester 22 rimfire collector.https://surplused.com/index.php/2020/05/15/the-model-1885-winder-muskets/
Rick,
It was published in the WACA Winter 2010 Collector magazine…
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks for sharing Bert. I’ll check it out in the Collector as well.
RickC
November 7, 2015
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Thanks, Rick. Great reference article, Bert, quite frankly I need to read it again. Lots of really good info that means more now that I’ve had the opportunity to study a few examples and read what other authors have to say.
Mike
Because this topic has resurfaced, the table below shows the current numbers I have in the survey;
| Variation & Cartridge Survey Totals and Percentages | ||||||
| Variation | 22 LONG R. | 22 SHORT | 22 LONG | Other | 22 ? | Total |
| Winder Musket (1st var.) | 1,864 | 74 | 67 | 8 | 7 | 2,020 |
| % of Total | 92.28% | 3.66% | 3.32% | 0.40% | 0.35% | 47.81% |
| Winder Musket (2nd var.) | 422 | 139 | 0 | 5 | 32 | 598 |
| % of Total | 70.57% | 23.24% | 0.00% | 0.84% | 5.35% | 14.15% |
| Model 87 | 55 | 256 | 5 | 6 | 19 | 341 |
| % of Total | 16.13% | 75.07% | 1.47% | 1.76% | 5.57% | 8.07% |
| Model 87 (U.S. marked) | 1 | 1,265 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1,266 |
| % of Total | 0.08% | 99.92% | 0.00% | 0.00% | 0.00% | 29.96% |
| Totals | 2,342 | 1,734 | 72 | 19 | 58 | 4,225 |
| % of Total | 55.42% | 41.03% | 1.70% | 0.45% | 1.37% | |
I am still actively looking for more Winder Muskets to add to the survey.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert can you advise what the “other” calibre is or what they are in the 2nd variation model & what the 22? is.
Thanks
RickC
RickC said
Bert can you advise what the “other” calibre is or what they are in the 2nd variation model & what the 22? is.Thanks
RickC
The “Other” category includes the following;
1st Var: (4) made in 22 WRF, and (4) made in 22 WCF.
2nd Var: (1) made in 25-20 S.S., (1) made in 32 WCF, (2) made in 25-20 WCF, and (1) in 45-70.
Model 87: (1) in 25-20 WCF, and (5) with factory 22 Hornet barrels installed after 1930.
The “22 ?” column indicates an unknown/unverified 22 rim fire cartridge. In explanation, over the past many years I found (58) old auction listings by searching the internet where the auction house listing simply stated “22 rim fire”. I have no way of determining which specific 22 rim fire ctg it was (e.g. 22 Short or 22 Long Rifle), but based on the serial number and limited pictures, I was able to ID which variation Winder Musket it was.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks Bert. Appreciate the info. I always considered the 1885 Winder musket a .22 rim fire only model but as often found, Winchester would build whatever the customer requested if it was doable.
RickC
Thus far, at least (10) of them were originally made in center fire cartridges (a very tiny percentage as compared to those in .22 rim fire). I have been fortunate enough to actually see and inspect three of them (could have bought two of them and didn’t because I was unaware of just how rare they were at the time).
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Here’s a few pics of mine in 22 Long R. 2nd variation model. Made in 1913
Bert H. said
Thus far, at least (10) of them were originally made in center fire cartridges (a very tiny percentage as compared to those in .22 rim fire). I have been fortunate enough to actually see and inspect three of them (could have bought two of them and didn’t because I was unaware of just how rare they were at the time).
Yes a center fire is rare now that the total numbers in the survey at least have been identified. Something for me to chase Bert. Thanks…I think!
RickC
RickC said
Here’s a few pics of mine in 22 Long R. 2nd variation model. Made in 1913
Can’t tell for sure without seeing the top of it, but looks like the M1901 Krag sight. Much better positioned on the brl then it was on the Krag, where it was too far forward for best use of the aperture.
Once had a sporting model HW .22, but loading it got to be too much of a nuisance. For that reason, those used in serious competition sometimes had the right side-wall milled down.
This is the rear sight that’s on it Clarence. I believe they’re Krag.
RickC said
This is the rear sight that’s on it Clarence. I believe they’re Krag.
There were 4 Krag different sights–this, the M1901, was the best of them.
Rick,
Almost all of the 2nd variation Winder Muskets were outfitted with a Krag Model 1901 rear sight. The 2nd variation was an improvement over the 1st variation because of the new (revised) location of the rear sight.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I am still actively looking for more Winder Muskets to add to the survey.
Had I sent you 120371 and 126931? Thought I had but can’t find the message…
freebird1968 said
I am still actively looking for more Winder Muskets to add to the survey.
Had I sent you 120371 and 126931? Thought I had but can’t find the message…
I do not have S/N 120371 listed in my survey. Is it a 2nd variation, or a 3rd variation (it could be either one based on the serial number). Which specific .22 cartridge is it chambered for? Pictures ?
I do have 126931 listed, a U.S. ordnance marked 3rd variation (Model 87), listed with a shortened (cut-down) forestock.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
126931 (as I bought it) was a full length forearm 3rd variation in .22S, military marked.
120371 is a 2nd variation in .22S
If you would like any more photos, I can send them to your adress (or open a specific topic here, as best suits you)
freebird1968 said
126931 (as I bought it) was a full length forearm 3rd variation in .22S, military marked.
120371 is a 2nd variation in .22S
If you would like any more photos, I can send them to your adress (or open a specific topic here, as best suits you)
Thanks for update and pictures. Somebody apparently replaced the forend stock on your Model 87 before selling it to you.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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