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This rifle was originally a standard round barrel S,L,LR configuration and sold on Gunbroker out of Union, Kentucky.
Buy/bidder beware!!!
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Thanks Michael for being on top of these things and letting us know. Hard to believe that a large auction would participate in fraud like this, but I think they do on a regular basis. Peter
Folks,
I have no intent to defend RIA or any other auction house, but feel compelled to comment here. RIA handles many and varied firearms for each auction. For REGIONAL Auctions in particular, they spend but very little time looking at a firearm before producing their write up. Never would they do enough research to discover the rifle had previously been a round barreled rifle and sold previously at another auction. They often use the information provided to them by the current consignor. Both they and the consignor desire to obtain the most possible money from the auction and tend to be a little on the rosy side if anything. Their “out” is they provide the items for sale “as is, where is” and only underwrite the truly high end pieces. Thus it is MOST important, in my humble opinion, to view and handle the firearm prior to placing a bid. I have given up participating in the regional auctions as that is where the more mundane, and potentially questionable, pieces end up for the MOST part. For all that, their descriptors sometimes state a firearm is “reblued” when I seriously do not agree. Also there are “totally original” pieces that have been obviously reblued/refinished. If you are going to buy via any auction house, you need to either handle the piece, have a trusted agent handle the piece, or take your chances. You may luck out, but you may also get burned. Big volume buyers, should they end up with a questionable piece, then in turn put it into an auction and take their lumps or sometimes gains accordingly. It is definitely “buyer be ware”. Is RIA or any other auction house participating in a fraud? Not by the legal definition.
Tim
Tim, I have to disagree with you. In the past, and probably in this case also, they have been told by notable and knowledgeable folks that a certain gun is described wrong because of, let’s say, a past sale and known configuration. They very seldom, if ever, change their descriptions. I would say that if the auction house knowingly participates in the misrepresentation of a sale item, then they are involved in fraud as is the consigner. Put that into a court room with a jury of 12 and see what happens. They will loose every time IMO. Peter
Tim,
I totally agree with your comments. The sheer volume of guns handled makes near impossible to catch everything. Bottom line go inspect them in person and make your own judgment that way you’ll know what your buying. I don’t see how an auction house is any different than a gun show,,,, or do some folks think all the guys at gun shows are honest about the guns they are selling.
I guess its good that we as a group can identify these guns that have been changed and pass that information along to those who visit this site. However, I dont think its any auction house’s responsibility to research the recent history of every gun that comes through the door. Yes, they do have a responsibility to judge any firearm on its merits, and in most cases that means as-is when they receive it. Sure some get it right and others get it wrong. And when that auction house gets that phone call or email regarding a particular firearm in question, Im sure they have to ask themselves, even in light of the information relayed, who exactly is this person telling me these things, their intent, is their information reliable, are they an “expert” (if there is such a thing), or are they some crack-pot. Just think of all the other firearms that get sold other than a couple hand fulls of Winchester models that could have been changed some time in the past or the day before they were consigned.
Whether you agree or not, the bottom line is that its incumbent as a buyer to know what you are buying and the terms/conditions of the sale whether through an auction house, gun show, or individual and that means doing your research and having a knowledge base whether it be books, this site, or the people in which we solicit an opinion to form an opinion, to buy or not.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Hi guys,
Here are a few thoughts on this subject. I tend to agree that in most cases the auction house is only representing what they have been told by the consignor of the rifles/shotguns. As long as the gun is in a reasonably correct configuration for its SN range they may have no way to tell if something has been altered. That is what I believe to be the case in this instance. I would think/hope that they at least have people on staff who would catch the mismatch of lets say a very early SN with a much later incorrectly matched barrel address stamp.
In defense of RIA there is also another Model 61 in this auction which has an incorrect/replaced barrel but it is noted in the description so I did not flag that gun. It IS up to us buyers to read all the fine print. I do totally agree with my fellow Texan 1892takedown that it would be very difficult for an auction house to field and and all “outside input” on any particular gun that may be listed. Just imagine somebody bad mouthing a particular rifle as fake and then buying it on the cheap!! That certainly would be almost impossible to deal with for them.
In this instance I will contact RIA int he morning and let them know the problem with the listing and then it is up to them to deal with it as they desire. I only post these “warnings” as helpful input for us collectors and certainly do not try to condemn any party without knowing MUCH more information.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
November 7, 2015
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Could also be like the .22 we discussed a few months back. Seem to recall a rifle sold by Homestead awhile back had an identical serial number to a different gun offered by an auction house. Very unlikely but apparently it happens.
Without a doubt, the more survey information collected the more we are going to discover the degree of shenanigans going on out there. Be it safe to say, as individuals contributing in our own little ways and as part of a group organization, we can and do sometimes provide a service to the collecting community at large. What sticks in the craw are similar past discussions that degenerated into a witch hunt. The point being, there is a level of decorum used in making arguments for or against, and considerations for understanding all sides of the fence.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
What sticks in the craw are similar past discussions that degenerated into a witch hunt. The point being, there is a level of decorum used in making arguments for or against, and considerations for understanding all sides of the fence.
1892Takedown,
I could not agree with you more. Far too often the assumption is made that the auction house is guilty of negligence and fraud from the outset without any thought as to how or from whom they get there information. In addition, we as an association of collectors should always strive to present ourselves in a professional and courteous way. It does no good to appear to be a bunch of name callers ranting about the evils of some one else without full and first hand knowledge.
I post the information about guns I find not in an attempt to prove any individual party is in the wrong. But rather just that the gun has been altered since I had noted it earlier. Who knows when or how it was changed.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
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