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March 20, 2009
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Kmbr said
Hello,My Routledge is #42169.It was my first m61 and it took me about 5 years to convince my buddy to sell it to me.That was 40 years ago.Time sure does fly by!
I only have one Routledge bore rifle earlier than yours that is SN 41860. Then yours. Then 43582. Then every other RB rifle is in the 45xxx to 48xxx SN range. Could you please post some photos of your rifle?
Thanks
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
April 15, 2015
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Sorry the correct # is #45169.Here a couple of photos.
March 20, 2009
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Kmbr said
Sorry the correct # is #45169.Here a couple of photos.
That SN makes a big difference! Thanks. The photos did not make it. Can you send them to me at [email protected] Is there a “W” stamped between the serial number and the trigger guard?
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
April 15, 2015
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Here are the photos.
April 15, 2015
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What is the Routledge count now?
March 20, 2009
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Kmbr said
What is the Routledge count now?
There are currently 92 Routledge bore rifles identified.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
December 9, 2002
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Michael,
Educate us, as far as the difference between the Rutledge bore rifles, and the Smooth bore rifles.
Is there an updated count on the Smooth bores in you’re survey?
Which if I’m not mistaken, might be more common than the Rutledge bore model 61’s!
Anthony
April 15, 2005
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Anthony said
Michael,Educate us, as far as the difference between the Rutledge bore rifles, and the Smooth bore rifles.
Is there an updated count on the Smooth bores in you’re survey?
Which if I’m not mistaken, might be more common than the Rutledge bore model 61’s!
Anthony
It is my understanding that the Routledge bore barrels are counterbored (with a slightly larger diameter bore) for a specified length whereas the Smoothbore rifles have the same diameter for the entire length of the barrel. To really muddy the waters, it is my understanding that Winchester for a short period of time also manufactured a counterbored .22 caliber barrel for the Model 61, but the counterbore diameter is smaller than the Routledge counterbore, and has a different length/depth.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
December 9, 2002
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Bert,
Thanks for clarifying that. To be perfectly honest, I did hear something to the additional counter bored effect, but never really understood it.
So with that being said, how are they marked, or identified, showing the differences?
Anthony
April 15, 2005
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Anthony said
Bert,Thanks for clarifying that. To be perfectly honest, I did hear something to the additional counter bored effect, but never really understood it.
So with that being said, how are they marked, or identified, showing the differences?
Anthony
They are identified by the serial number range, and by the bore diameter at the muzzle. I suspect that most are overlooked or not properly identified when found at gun shows & gun shops.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
December 9, 2002
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Bert H. said
Anthony said
Bert,
Thanks for clarifying that. To be perfectly honest, I did hear something to the additional counter bored effect, but never really understood it.
So with that being said, how are they marked, or identified, showing the differences?
Anthony
They are identified by the serial number range, and by the bore diameter at the muzzle. I suspect that most are overlooked or not properly identified when found at gun shows & gun shops.
Bert
Once again Bert, I am in agreement with you. As without any prior knowledge of this, most including myself would not know to look at the bore, at the muzzle end, and only look at the address, as I have done in the past, and would love to see a serial number break down as it’s developing, from the good survey work that’s on going. Thanks again, for this additional information.
Anthony
March 20, 2009
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Good morning,
The Routlege bore rifles are found in the serial number range between roughly 45000 and 48200. The altered portion of the bore is deeper and larger than the subsequent Winchester Counterbore rifles. Counterbore examples appear at serial number 51000 and extend all the way until 280000. The caliber stamp is the same for each. My reference books are back in Houston and out of reach until October. Both of these variations have matted top receivers, no rear sight and a single bead front sight. They are effectively a shotgun not a rifle. Winchester also produced “straight bore” for shot only guns. I have many times found Model 61’s described as smoothbores and only after asking for additional images of the muzzle face found them to be counterbore examples. Therefore, the exact number and SN range of counterbore and straight bore guns does have some error associated with them.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
December 9, 2002
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Thanks Michael,
That additional information, with the serial numbers really helps a lot, and the fact that the matted top receivers for the first two variations also!
I will add those notes to my Book!
Anthony
March 20, 2009
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Hello all,
I am looking for Model 61’s that are SN’s 46640, 46646, 46839, and 46861. These are “LR Shot Only” variations but when they came up there was no mention if they may have been Routledge bore rifles. They definitely fall in the range of those rifles so I need a bit more information on them. Do they have a matted receiver top? Is the loading port in the magazine triangular shaped? Is there only a bead front sight and no rear sight on the barrel? If you have one of these rifles PLEASE contact me either via this thread or at my email. [email protected]
My count is now up to 96 Routledge bore rifles.
Thanks so much,
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
January 27, 1992
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Are the “Winchester Counter Bore” rifles considered rare or just an unusual model? Thanks. RDB
March 20, 2009
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rogertherelic said
Are the “Winchester Counter Bore” rifles considered rare or just an unusual model? Thanks. RDB
Good morning,
Model 61’s in the counter bore configuration are definitely uncommon by most peoples standards but probably wouldn’t necessarily be considered rare. Trying to determine an accurate number that were produced will be difficult since I find that some rifles that are described as “Shot Only” do not have a bore description that assures they are counter bore versus just a straight bore variation. When the second, third, or fourth owner does not notice the difference it is difficult to be super accurate.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
January 27, 1992
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The 61 I have is marked “-FOR SHOT ONLY-” ser. no. 52131. It has the “Winchester Counter Bore”. RDB
March 20, 2009
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rogertherelic said
The 61 I have is marked “-FOR SHOT ONLY-” ser. no. 52131. It has the “Winchester Counter Bore”. RDB
Good morning,
I do have your rifle in my survey already and highlighted in Yellow in the attached image. The other highlighted serial numbers are rifles that I have seen but were not described as counter bore variations but I highly suspect that they were. If anyone haas one of these rifle PLEASE contact me to clarify the barrel design.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
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