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Examined a 1906 vintage type 2 M1890 yesterday for a lady who wants to sell it.
It is a rebbl. with the circle P and the Winchester proof mark.
Now is this factory installed, or hardware store bought bbl.? Thanks, Big Larry
Larry,
Unless you letter it and find that it has a documented “R&R”, you would be wise to assume that it was rebarreled outside of the factory. With no verifiable proof to the contrary, most collectors are going to view it as a non-factory barrel.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Could someone please remind me what the cutoff is for factory letters on 1890s?
Joel Goodrich said
Could someone please remind me what the cutoff is for factory letters on 1890s?
| MODEL | WAREHOUSE ONLY | WAREHOUSE and SNA | SNA ONLY | ||
| 1890 30000-329999 | 1-19999 & 30000-329999 Ask Bert | ||||
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Serial number 329999 is the last Model 1890 that can be fully lettered. Per the PR records, it was manufactured in early August 1907. SNA records are available for the entire production run, serial numbers 1 – 854747 (November 26th, 1890 – November 23rd, 1949).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Big Larry said
Examined a 1906 vintage type 2 M1890 yesterday for a lady who wants to sell it.It is a rebbl. with the circle P and the Winchester proof mark.
Now is this factory installed, or hardware store bought bbl.? Thanks, Big Larry
Hi Larry,
The barrel is not original to the gun, that should be enough said for most collectors as it does significantly impact the value. As Bert stated, everything else is just speculation without documentation.
I tend to think the combination of mail order proof and Winchester definitive proof (WP) does indicate it was replaced at the factory (and then subsequently test fired). There is some information from Winchester employees stating they would sometimes pull mail order replacement barrels from the shelf when re-barreling a rifle in-house (hence the 2 proof markings). BUT, that is just my opinion based on VERY limited evidence and is certainly not absolute by any means.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA said
Big Larry said
Examined a 1906 vintage type 2 M1890 yesterday for a lady who wants to sell it.It is a rebbl. with the circle P and the Winchester proof mark.
Now is this factory installed, or hardware store bought bbl.? Thanks, Big Larry
Hi Larry,
The barrel is not original to the gun, that should be enough said for most collectors as it does significantly impact the value. As Bert stated, everything else is just speculation without documentation.
I tend to think the combination of mail order proof and Winchester definitive proof (WP) does indicate it was replaced at the factory (and then subsequently test fired). There is some information from Winchester employees stating they would sometimes pull mail order replacement barrels from the shelf when re-barreling a rifle in-house (hence the 2 proof markings). BUT, that is just my opinion based on VERY limited evidence and is certainly not absolute by any means.
Best Regards,
Thanks JWA. I was under the impression that a bbl. with the factory proof mark as well as the circle P was a rework done at Winchester. It is no biggie on this rifle as it is about a 30%er and has no collector value. It would make a good shooter, but considering the fact that it belonged to her Grandfather, I advised her to keep it. It would probably sell for around $700 on a good day. Would not look good in my safe. Thanks, Big Larry
If the gun is stamped with the OP is means it is a Winchester barrel but was purchased and installed by someone other that the factory. OP outside purchase. Someone else may have a picture of the OP stamping.
I agree with JWA and Big Larry about such markings being indicative of factory work. As for collector value, one assembled in the clean-up range and in high condition would attract some collectors…otherwise, not so much.
James
cwachter said
If the gun is stamped with the OP is means it is a Winchester barrel but was purchased and installed by someone other that the factory. OP outside purchase. Someone else may have a picture of the OP stamping.
O.F. is the stamp used for parts that required outside fitting and a single “P” in an oval was used to denote mail order parts. The following excerpts are from the Winchester ledgers at Cody.
And here is the Winchester Definitive Proof “WP” in an oval which is applied when a rifle is proof test fired at the factory.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA said
cwachter said
If the gun is stamped with the OP is means it is a Winchester barrel but was purchased and installed by someone other that the factory. OP outside purchase. Someone else may have a picture of the OP stamping.O.F. is the stamp used for parts that required outside fitting and a single “P” in an oval was used to denote mail order parts. The following excerpts are from the Winchester ledgers at Cody.
And here is the Winchester Definitive Proof “WP” in an oval which is applied when a rifle is proof test fired at the factory.
Best Regards,
Good info. Never have seen the OF stamp. OP still means it is a Winchester part but was installed outside of the factory. Most of the time I have seen these on barrels.
Very few of these bbls. have the definitive Winchester proofmark. The rifle is question was mfg. before they put proof marks on 22’s. Big Larry
The PW in oval proof means it was proof fired at the Winchester factory. This rule applied to new guns but also to factory rebarreled guns some of which have the plain P in oval mail order proof as well. Employees have told us that Winchester used those plain P barrels when necessary for a re-barreling job.
Winchester would not and could not put a PW proof on any barrel sent out to a gunsmith for fitting. Winchester could not test or proof fire it because they did not have it. The gunsmith had it.
If you think about it, Winchester (for liability reasons) would not have put a PW Test firing proof on a gun that they did not test fire.
So if a gun has a PW in oval proof (with or without a plain P in oval) then that barrel was fitted at the factory. I have no proof of this but common sense, known facts and the guns themselves leads one to this conclusion.
I have two pretty nice 1890’s that could be lettered. Can I hear opinions on how much more (if any) these two might be worth with a fact sheet/letter verses no letter or fact sheet? Thanks in advance. Peter
Eagle said
I have two pretty nice 1890’s that could be lettered. Can I hear opinions on how much more (if any) these two might be worth with a fact sheet/letter verses no letter or fact sheet? Thanks in advance. Peter
I don’t think the guns would be worth any more than the price of the letter unless it shows a special feature. It does make the guns easier to sell though. The money helps the CFM and is another reason to buy these.
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