Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters




sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_Print sp_TopicIcon
Correct U.S. marked Winder Musket
April 20, 2019
3:04 pm
Avatar
Virginia
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 115
Member Since:
September 7, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Folks,

I am considering a U.S. marked Winder Musket in upcoming auction.  It is listed as .22 short, Lyman 53 sight, has ordnance bomb with US stamped behind hammer.  I can't download photos and won't be able to examine until day of the auction.  Any recommendations for reference material or what to look for to avoid fakery (correct markings, serial # range, dead-giveaways)?

Thanks

Mac

April 20, 2019
6:00 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 872
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online

So many were purchased by the US gov't that it seems unlikely anyone would "fake" one by adding the Ordnance Dept. markings, if that's what you're concerned about; those sold commercially are probably scarcer, as are those chambered for LR.  Ser. no. range--130,000s. 

April 20, 2019
8:10 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 56
Member Since:
May 26, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

image-1.jpgImage Enlargerimage-2.jpgImage Enlarger

It should be the Lyman 53 as picture and those are correct markings. There were only 11,419 martially marked that were ordered by winchester.as far as serial numbers range I am not sure. Hope this helps

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
April 21, 2019
2:11 am
Avatar
Virginia
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 115
Member Since:
September 7, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thanks gents.  I have minimal/no knowledge on 1885's in general and Winder Muskets specifically.  I don't know if they are subject to frequent fakery as are other Winchester rim fire models and was hoping to get some info to minimize risk if I decide to pursue this one.

Appreciate your responses, they were helpful.

Mac 

April 21, 2019
2:22 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 872
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online

Big Mac said
I have minimal/no knowledge on 1885's in general and Winder Muskets specifically.   

Main thing to know about Winders is that this 3rd model is the least desirable--they were rushed into production to exploit the military sales opportunity WWI provided, & were not manufactured to the same high standards as previous Winders. 

April 21, 2019
5:01 am
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Forum Posts: 9254
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

clarence said

Main thing to know about Winders is that this 3rd model is the least desirable--they were rushed into production to exploit the military sales opportunity WWI provided, & were not manufactured to the same high standards as previous Winders.   

That is quite frankly a large load of B.S.!  Where on earth did you come up with that bogus information?

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

April 21, 2019
5:14 am
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Forum Posts: 9254
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Big Mac said
Folks,

I am considering a U.S. marked Winder Musket in upcoming auction.  It is listed as .22 short, Lyman 53 sight, has ordnance bomb with US stamped behind hammer.  I can't download photos and won't be able to examine until day of the auction.  Any recommendations for reference material or what to look for to avoid fakery (correct markings, serial # range, dead-giveaways)?

Thanks

Mac  

Mac,

I wrote a detailed article about the Winder Muskets that was published in the Winter 2010 Collector magazine that discusses most of the details.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

April 21, 2019
12:15 pm
Avatar
Virginia
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 115
Member Since:
September 7, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Bert H. said

Mac,

I wrote a detailed article about the Winder Muskets that was published in the Winter 2010 Collector magazine that discusses most of the details.

Bert  

Thanks Bert.  That's what I needed.  Wish there were a way to print out these articles for note taking.

Mac

April 21, 2019
3:11 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 872
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online

Bert H. said

That is quite frankly a large load of B.S.!  Where on earth did you come up with that bogus information?

Bert  

The action of the one I had was very noticeably "rougher" in operation than any other M. 85 I had ever owned.  Since this particular M. 87 was in near mint cond., I attributed its non-smoothness to the fact that it hadn't been "broken in" as my others had (though a couple of them were also high cond. guns).  Years later I read Campbell's discussion in Vol. 1 of how some of them, at least, had been assembled from spare parts after WWI, & guessed that mine had been one of those.  But I acknowledge that it's a mistake to form a conclusion based on a single specimen of any model.

April 21, 2019
6:45 pm
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Forum Posts: 9254
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Clarence,

I suspect that your Model 87 Winder Musket need a good internal cleaning. There were a few hundred of them that were assembled from remaining parts on hand (in the year 1922), none of which will have martial markings on them. I cannot attest to how well those last (parts clean-up) specimens were made. However, of the nearly 15,000 that were manufactured from January 1918 through June 1920, they were built to the same standards as all previous Model 1885s. The weak point on the Winder Muskets (all three variations) was the firing pin & extractor/ejector, but the same issue prevailed with all of the .22 rim fire Model 1885 rifles.

Of the three variations, the Ordnance marked 3rd variation Winders have that greatest interest (value) in the collector market. Personally, I would be willing to pay more for a 2nd variation (high-wall) Take Down in 22 Long Rifle in identical condition.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Forum Timezone: UTC 0

Most Users Ever Online: 628

Currently Online: mrcvs, clarence, AG
38 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)


Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 16

Topics: 6293

Posts: 50279


Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 840

Members: 8453

Moderators: 4

Admins: 3


Top Posters:

1873man: 3900

twobit: 2399

TXGunNut: 2053

Maverick: 1414

Big Larry: 1328

JWA: 1219

Wincacher: 1180

Brad Dunbar: 1043

clarence: 872

Matt74: 836

Navigation