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Correct U.S. marked Winder Musket
April 20, 2019
3:04 pm
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Virginia
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Folks,

I am considering a U.S. marked Winder Musket in upcoming auction.  It is listed as .22 short, Lyman 53 sight, has ordnance bomb with US stamped behind hammer.  I can't download photos and won't be able to examine until day of the auction.  Any recommendations for reference material or what to look for to avoid fakery (correct markings, serial # range, dead-giveaways)?

Thanks

Mac

April 20, 2019
6:00 pm
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So many were purchased by the US gov't that it seems unlikely anyone would "fake" one by adding the Ordnance Dept. markings, if that's what you're concerned about; those sold commercially are probably scarcer, as are those chambered for LR.  Ser. no. range--130,000s. 

April 20, 2019
8:10 pm
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image-1.jpgImage Enlargerimage-2.jpgImage Enlarger

It should be the Lyman 53 as picture and those are correct markings. There were only 11,419 martially marked that were ordered by winchester.as far as serial numbers range I am not sure. Hope this helps

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April 21, 2019
2:11 am
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Virginia
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Thanks gents.  I have minimal/no knowledge on 1885's in general and Winder Muskets specifically.  I don't know if they are subject to frequent fakery as are other Winchester rim fire models and was hoping to get some info to minimize risk if I decide to pursue this one.

Appreciate your responses, they were helpful.

Mac 

April 21, 2019
2:22 am
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Big Mac said
I have minimal/no knowledge on 1885's in general and Winder Muskets specifically.   

Main thing to know about Winders is that this 3rd model is the least desirable--they were rushed into production to exploit the military sales opportunity WWI provided, & were not manufactured to the same high standards as previous Winders. 

April 21, 2019
5:01 am
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Kingston, WA
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clarence said

Main thing to know about Winders is that this 3rd model is the least desirable--they were rushed into production to exploit the military sales opportunity WWI provided, & were not manufactured to the same high standards as previous Winders.   

That is quite frankly a large load of B.S.!  Where on earth did you come up with that bogus information?

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
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April 21, 2019
5:14 am
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Kingston, WA
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Big Mac said
Folks,

I am considering a U.S. marked Winder Musket in upcoming auction.  It is listed as .22 short, Lyman 53 sight, has ordnance bomb with US stamped behind hammer.  I can't download photos and won't be able to examine until day of the auction.  Any recommendations for reference material or what to look for to avoid fakery (correct markings, serial # range, dead-giveaways)?

Thanks

Mac  

Mac,

I wrote a detailed article about the Winder Muskets that was published in the Winter 2010 Collector magazine that discusses most of the details.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

April 21, 2019
12:15 pm
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Virginia
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Bert H. said

Mac,

I wrote a detailed article about the Winder Muskets that was published in the Winter 2010 Collector magazine that discusses most of the details.

Bert  

Thanks Bert.  That's what I needed.  Wish there were a way to print out these articles for note taking.

Mac

April 21, 2019
3:11 pm
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Bert H. said

That is quite frankly a large load of B.S.!  Where on earth did you come up with that bogus information?

Bert  

The action of the one I had was very noticeably "rougher" in operation than any other M. 85 I had ever owned.  Since this particular M. 87 was in near mint cond., I attributed its non-smoothness to the fact that it hadn't been "broken in" as my others had (though a couple of them were also high cond. guns).  Years later I read Campbell's discussion in Vol. 1 of how some of them, at least, had been assembled from spare parts after WWI, & guessed that mine had been one of those.  But I acknowledge that it's a mistake to form a conclusion based on a single specimen of any model.

April 21, 2019
6:45 pm
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Clarence,

I suspect that your Model 87 Winder Musket need a good internal cleaning. There were a few hundred of them that were assembled from remaining parts on hand (in the year 1922), none of which will have martial markings on them. I cannot attest to how well those last (parts clean-up) specimens were made. However, of the nearly 15,000 that were manufactured from January 1918 through June 1920, they were built to the same standards as all previous Model 1885s. The weak point on the Winder Muskets (all three variations) was the firing pin & extractor/ejector, but the same issue prevailed with all of the .22 rim fire Model 1885 rifles.

Of the three variations, the Ordnance marked 3rd variation Winders have that greatest interest (value) in the collector market. Personally, I would be willing to pay more for a 2nd variation (high-wall) Take Down in 22 Long Rifle in identical condition.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
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