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Another Model 52c Question- U.S.Property Marked
July 22, 2019
12:40 am
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I am looking at a Model 52c possibly to purchase online. The gun is marked on the right side of the receiver with"U.S. Property". The marking looks to be roll stamped and from what I have been reading and seeing in other guns that the marking was done in a crude manner with a etching  pen. I am suspicious that this is not an original marking. It supposedly has a cartouche marking  on the stock somewhere also but I haven't seen a photo of this yet. I haven't asked for more photos as I would not be interested if the marking is faked.

July 22, 2019
1:06 am
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I am not sure why anyone would want to fake a U.S. Property marking on a 52C since the Army rifles do not bring much more, if any, $$ above a commercial 52C in the same condition.  Most of the original ones I have seen have been crudely hand-marked as you mentioned. 

Seewin will probably have an answer to your question.

Regards,

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July 22, 2019
1:40 am
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Dave K. said 
It supposedly has a cartouche marking  on the stock somewhere also but I haven't seen a photo of this yet. I haven't asked for more photos as I would not be interested if the marking is faked.  

Beware: fake cartouches have become common as dirt, thanks to the reduced cost (using modern CC machinery), of making the dies.  It's my understanding that only service rifles were marked with cartouches, but I could be wrong.  Big Larry is also an expert on the subject of correct military markings.

July 22, 2019
3:08 am
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I have never seen a "C" model with  a U.S. Property stamp of any type, whether roll or hand stamp. I have seen 2 types of U.S. Property stampings on "B" models. These were all on relatively late production rifles in the 67XXX to 7XXXX range. The earliest style is simply stamped "U.S. PROP." on RH side of barrel next to receiver. The later style is a 1pc handstamp "U.S. PROPERTY".  I own 2 of these less than 100 numbers apart, so feel they are the real deal. These being so late in "B" production, I can see where an early "C" model could have been stamped this way as well. In fact, I own some C's with earlier numbers than these. I know the earlier style is legit as well, as one of my examples came from a Navy competitor that won it in the early 50's while shooting on the Navy team. I have confirmed this with his team captain as well who presented him with the rifle. 

    So, it is possible the C is legit. I would think it would be a very early early production example, and stamp would look like the one shown in picture below which is one of my latest B's. The one concern I would have is the fact that the C receivers were extremely hard. Unlike the B's, the C's were gas carburized, which required the serial numbers and proof stamps before hardening. I would think the impressions would be relatively light in the C receivers.

Steve

 

DSC_0003-1.jpgImage Enlarger

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July 22, 2019
1:34 pm
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seewin, Thanks so much for the very informative reply. The gun is now off the market before I could get some photos. 

July 22, 2019
3:56 pm
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JWA said
I am not sure why anyone would want to fake a U.S. Property marking on a 52C since the Army rifles do not bring much more, if any, $$ above a commercial 52C in the same condition.  Most of the original ones I have seen have been crudely hand-marked as you mentioned. 

Seewin will probably have an answer to your question.

Regards,  

Dear JWA. I used to collect US Martial arms and until the CMP came up with the first batch of US marked M52-C's, they were unobntainable. These rifles from the first batch were bringing $2,500 on the open market. That is why there are so many fakes out there. I had a beautiful M52-C that my buddy, who worked at the CMP, hand picked for me. 95%+, matching bolt, US Property, properly done in electric pencil, and a beautiful DOD cartouche in the stock. It went to my BIL, along with a US marked Lyman STS for a nice Winchester M53 in 32-20. Just like the M1903/A1 USMC Sniper Rifles. When the prices went up, the fakes starting showing up. Too many original USMC marked Lymans and not enough of the real M1903/A1 Marine rifles. I collected US Martial arms for several years and was very aware of all the fakes out there. Mostly M1903's with fake cartouches. US Martial trenchguns as well.   Big Larry

July 22, 2019
3:58 pm
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BTW, for what its worrth, Pauline Muerrele told me that those electric pencil marking were, in fact, done at the factory. Big Larry

July 22, 2019
11:11 pm
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Hi Larry,

More of the US property marked 52C's have come out of the CMP since those first early few so they are not nearly so scarce.  When I said "hand-marked" in my response I meant marked by hand with an electric pencil.   The couple I saw for sale on GB last year only brought about $800, about the same price as an unmarked 52C in average condition.  I bought one of them since I had a US marked 52D but not a marked 52C.

I agree with Pauline that they were done that way at Winchester, several other former Winchester employees have stated the same thing.

Best Regards,

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July 23, 2019
12:34 am
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JWA said
When I said "hand-marked" in my response I meant marked by hand with an electric pencil.   The couple I saw for sale on GB last year only brought about $800, about the same price as an unmarked 52C in average condition.    

I'd pay MORE, if it were necessary, for one without that ugly defacement!  The neat stamping shown in Seewin's photo would be worth a small premium to me, but not that sloppy scrawl, regardless of who did it. 

July 23, 2019
2:44 pm
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clarence said

I'd pay MORE, if it were necessary, for one without that ugly defacement!  The neat stamping shown in Seewin's photo would be worth a small premium to me, but not that sloppy scrawl, regardless of who did it.   

I agree.

And, on top of the ugly scrawl, the ROTC/CMP guns were not cared for very well in some cases.  Lots of dents/dings/nicks and parts swapping.

Regards,

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July 23, 2019
5:26 pm
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You think the C's look bad? Look what they did to the "D"s.

JWA, yes many of those CMP "C" rifles were in terrible shape. My friend who worked there, hand picked 3 of them out, all three real nice ones, and sold one to his friend, a Birmingham PD officer, and one to me. I think I paid like $330 shipped. No handstop, but I did manage a set of Olympics on mine. Out of the Martial Arms field, I traded it to my BIL after owning it for several years. It did have the CMP certificate and the bill of sale for all three rifles. I have not kept up on values of US Militaria, but I did see a couple go for $2,500 on Gun Broker a few years back.   Big Larry

September 15, 2019
2:22 am
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This gun came up for sale again. Here is a link to photos. Thoughts on originality appreciated especially the "U.S. Property" marking.

https://m.imgur.com/a/bom5fpW

September 15, 2019
9:53 am
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Inscription looks legit to me. I've only seen a dozen or so pictures online of the US PROPERTY inscription done by that "drunken monkey" but this particular one is probably the most uniform and best-looking.

September 15, 2019
1:15 pm
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One of the CMP D's came without the scratching. No other marks..doesnt make it shoot any better but at least its got papers.

 

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September 15, 2019
2:20 pm
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3Dub said
...this particular one is probably the most uniform and best-looking.  

I wonder if this might be a clue that perhaps it's not legit--because it's easier to forge a neatly written signature than a shapeless scrawl (like mine).

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