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So I was getting back to looking into the Morphy catalog and the next Model 61 I came across is described as CONDITION: 99% near new inside and out. Fantastic, rare Model 61. WOW!!! IT must really be something!! Except for one HUGE turd in the punch bowl. The same rifle USED to be a standard Short, Long, Long Rifle variation sold by JULIA back in October of 2002!
The Julia listing:
And here is the Morphy listing (Lot 729) for the same rifle as altered at Morphy:
There may be more as I continue to look through the Morphy catalog. I would REALLY REALLY like to know if these two rifles (the previous thread) were consigned by the same person
I have added it to the Sticky list.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Great job Michael!
I would be willing to bet that the same morally decrepit dishonest seller sent both of those rifles to Morphy’s. Unfortunately, I doubt that a name (or names) will ever be revealed, which is a shame. I hope that someday our efforts to identify all of these fraudulently altered Winchesters put a very serious damper on the criminal element out there that is involved. If more of the honest dealers and collectors would get involved, the dishonest group would rapidly grow much smaller.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
What would really be nice is if Morphy’s could get the information from Julia as to who it was that purchased it in the (long shot) hope the consignor is the one.
I wonder, at what point does an act like this become fraud that is deemed to be criminal? Isn’t Morphy’s harmed by this?
November 7, 2015
Offline
I’ve spoken to my contact at Morphy’s and both listings will be pulled when he gets back to his office. I firmly believe any reputable auction house would want to avoid selling a faked item.
Mike
jban said
What would really be nice is if Morphy’s could get the information from Julia as to who it was that purchased it in the (long shot) hope the consignor is the one.I wonder, at what point does an act like this become fraud that is deemed to be criminal? Isn’t Morphy’s harmed by this?
Now that Morphy owns Julia it may be possible for them to search old records and generate that information.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Here’s an observation, an analysis, and a partial remedy to fakes.
As of early today Morphy Auction has NOT removed the two fake Model 61s from their auction online catalog, SNs 22217 and 264725. Just a FYI.
This Morphy catalog (November 2,3,4, 2018 auction) has as total of eight (8) Model 61s several of which fall into the economically viable fake mold. This is a real risk for a collector who may be thinking about bidding. Or is it? IF any are fake it’s because Micheal’s log contains only a fraction of the total model 61s produced. And if the original SN with data is not on Michaels list and one or three are fake nobody will ever know – except for the perp whom is the deceiver – and that firearm (now a ghost fake) will become another (legitimate) star of someone’s collection.
That is the business model that the fake firearm deceiver is working on. And I don’t think that he (she?) is deterred by an occasional “gotcha”. How to counteract this model? By feeding to Micheal every model 61 SN plus appropriate info that one finds at a gun store, auction, gun show, collections, so the log can be more complete. This is neither a solution nor a cure but will keep the perp on guard and hopefully begin to find it too much trouble to carry on with the deceitful business.
And Micheal, a big thanks for being conscientious.
merrbarb said
Here’s an observation, an analysis, and a partial remedy to fakes.As of early today Morphy Auction has NOT removed the two fake Model 61s from their auction online catalog, SNs 22217 and 264725. Just a FYI.
This Morphy catalog (November 2,3,4, 2018 auction) has as total of eight (8) Model 61s several of which fall into the economically viable fake mold. This is a real risk for a collector who may be thinking about bidding. Or is it? IF any are fake it’s because Micheal’s log contains only a fraction of the total model 61s produced. And if the original SN with data is not on Michaels list and one or three are fake nobody will ever know – except for the perp whom is the deceiver – and that firearm (now a ghost fake) will become another (legitimate) star of someone’s collection.
That is the business model that the fake firearm deceiver is working on. And I don’t think that he (she?) is deterred by an occasional “gotcha”. How to counteract this model? By feeding to Micheal every model 61 SN plus appropriate info that one finds at a gun store, auction, gun show, collections, so the log can be more complete. This is neither a solution nor a cure but will keep the perp on guard and hopefully begin to find it too much trouble to carry on with the deceitful business.
And Micheal, a big thanks for being conscientious.
Thanks for you kind words Merrbarb. And I agree that the more data we have compiled the better the work is. But your suggestion implies that I have to do this FOREVER!!!
The only possible way to really put a definitive answer together would be for the large auction houses to open up and tell me/us who consigned the many rifle that I have serious questions about. I already know that some known fakes were then auctioned or listed by them. if the questionable “unproven” rifles all came from the same sources then they are likely guilty of not being real. And it is definitely concerning that Morphy has not pulled the guns.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
I just sent Morphy Auctions an e-mail with a link to this forum thread. Maybe that will get their attention.
https://www.morphyauctions.com/contact/
Don
Michael, not a student of the model 61, just a fan. Now I’m all paranoid about my 1 example – which I sent you the serial # when it was acquired. It’s in wonderful shape and I assume completely original, but, if you knew it was not from previous listings, etc. would you have let me known when I sent you the serial # info? Thanks!
foxfire said
Michael, not a student of the model 61, just a fan. Now I’m all paranoid about my 1 example – which I sent you the serial # when it was acquired. It’s in wonderful shape and I assume completely original, but, if you knew it was not from previous listings, etc. would you have let me known when I sent you the serial # info? Thanks!
I would have certainly let you know if it were not kosher.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
So you caught that “forever” thing.
About auction houses, and being “responsible”, and “moral”. It’s rare to find anything like that in the same sentence with auction houses. In their defense they sell where is as is and let the buyer beware. Morphys firearms persons (experts?) are tuned to other than detecting or ferreting out fakes. They will not guarantee originality but will and do promote the deception of originality because they are agents for the seller. I suspect the more responsible auction houses (there I go using the two words in the same sentence) will pull items once confronted with evidence of fraud or deception. I hope that you can gain a relationship with Morphys. Again, let the buyer beware, as in most transactions.
It is not in their best interest to open up and let anyone know about deceptive consignors. They don’t want to loose business.
Bert Hartman, you Michael, and others, and the Cody Museum have been most helpful insofar as the original Winchester records go. And originality of a particular firearm can be verified, again insofar as the records exist. Unfortunately for Model 61 collectors few original detail records have been found. This is fortunate for the deceptors (fake arms makers). Therefore Michael your log is the best to go on to detect the fakes.
Merrill
As of this morning, Monday October 22, the offending rifle which was Lot 729 is not longer listed in the catalog!! Thanks to all who helped and the the Morphy Auction house for doing the right thing and helping to preserve this wonderful hobby of ours. It has become abundantly clear to me that this sort of fraudulent representation of collectible firearms has seriously deterred many from the collecting interest. Which in turn is “very bad for business” for Morphy.
Thanks again
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
November 7, 2015
Offline
Very good. I’m glad Morphy has demonstrated they care more about long term business and the collectors they serve than short term profits. Very refreshing attitude for these times. Thanks again for your vigilance and efforts.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Very good. I’m glad Morphy has demonstrated they care more about long term business and the collectors they serve than short term profits. Very refreshing attitude for these times. Thanks again for your vigilance and efforts.
Mike
I totally agree Mike. We should take just a moment to send them a thank you email. I REALLY mean that folks. Show them how important this issue is to all of us. If you get “taken” down the road you may no one to blame but yourself.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
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