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December 25, 2022
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I know it’s been reblued, and I’m okay with that. It hasn’t been overly buffed. The takedown is clean and tight. No pitting under the bluing. And the bore is very good, and it has some unique sights. I’m looking forward to shooting it.
November 7, 2015
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Some of us enjoy seeing a gun with character and the wood is a nice touch as well. Looking forward to a range report! That rear sight should prove interesting.
Mike
January 20, 2023
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Very handsome refinish and with a very interesting set of sights. Somebody cared enough about this rifle not to let it get rusty. Perhaps the same owner had the steel refinished by a smith who knew what he was doing. It looks good.
While I understand why collectors worship an all-original, high condition gun, I think it is wrong to say a knowledgeable and skillful refinish “wipes away a gun’s history and character.” What this rifle and others like it exemplify is a well-used but well cared-for piece. The Brits shoot in rainy weather and a man lucky enough to possess a matched pair of Boss bird guns is not going to let their steel go bare. The receivers are cased or coined with fine scroll that holds protective oil, but the barrels go back to the maker for “re-blacking” as required. Regularly. Americans who go shopping for such weapons expecting a huge discount are in for a rude shock.
I’m not suggesting refinishing an 1886 Winchester won’t affect its market price; it provably does. Nor do I condemn collectors who refuse to have a refinished gun in their collections. I do suggest voluably regarding with derision a fine piece that has been carefully and correctly refinished, is ignorant and short-sighted. The tail is wagging the dog. Caveat: “carefully and correctly” means an experienced collector has to look twice to be sure.
The stock has a lot of figure for what appears to be a standard grade rifle. Is the forearm as dark as it appears in the photo?
I assume this rifle has the 45-90 “express” barrel with 1-in-32 twist? How do you plan to load for it?
It looks like a fine adventure to me.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
December 25, 2022
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Zebulon,
The forearm has the same wood as the stock, but is darker. Don’t know if it’s from oil or what.
I’m not comfortable with black powder loadings. So I’m planning on starting with a 350 grain LFPGC bullet sized to .459
And I’m starting with IMR 3031 and RL7, and loading for 1300-1400 fps.
I’d gladly listen to any suggestions.
It must have the 1 in 32 twist, as it has a 26″ barrel and the cleaning rod with a tight patch only made about 3/4 of a revolution.
March 31, 2009
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I’ve never shot a bullet over 300 grains in my 45-90’s. With IMR 3031 I use 43 grains with the 300 bullet for around 1,550 fps . You’ll have to use less powder with the heavier bullet. If you don’t have a chronograph you need to find some reliable data for this heavier bullet.
Be safe and start low and work up.
August 14, 2021
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BP is the only way to go in my 1886, then again I’m a BP Sharps shooter.
November 7, 2015
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Steven Gabrielli said
BP is the only way to go in my 1886, then again I’m a BP Sharps shooter.
Agreed. The 45-90 is at its best with BP in the Sharps or the 1886. Those big cases need to be filled with Holy Black.
Mike
January 20, 2023
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From what little I’ve seen of Holy Black in actual use, it makes an Unholy Mess.
My one adventure with muzzle loaders actually involved Pyrodex, which is even more corrosive. I had bought a Ruger 77/50 inline model – all stainless steel and laminate stock. Standard cleaning procedure was to remove the stock, remove the bolt and dump it into a pot of boiling water, followed by the barreled action. Retrieving the barrel via a wire temporarily attached to the trigger guard, several quarts of boiling water were poured down the barrel until it was shiny clean. Everything was fished out of the tank and laid on a towel to dry, which it did pretty quickly. Before the steel could oxidize at all, I sprayed BreakFree liberally inside and out of everything.
I would not like to contemplate doing this to my pristine 1886 45-90 Sporting Rifle. Because the receiver does not have removable sideplates, getting corrosive powder residue out of the lockwork would be a troublesome worry.
A single shot would be easier, I’d guess.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
August 14, 2021
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It’s all about proper lube for controlling the mess and fouling, but yes it’s really not a problem for single shots at all.
January 20, 2023
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I understand SPG is the lube of choice for black powder cartridges, for the reason you say. I did buy a copy of Venturino and Garbe’s black powder manual and learned the letters of the name of the lube are Garbe’s initials.
I will get to BP but it is several projects down right now, due to my recent inability to resist several nameless rifles the original of which was introduced in 1899. Which requires me to auction several others from which the magic has leaked out.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015
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Zebulon said
I understand SPG is the lube of choice for black powder cartridges, for the reason you say. I did buy a copy of Venturino and Garbe’s black powder manual and learned the letters of the name of the lube are Garbe’s initials.
I will get to BP but it is several projects down right now, due to my recent inability to resist several nameless rifles the original of which was introduced in 1899. Which requires me to auction several others from which the magic has leaked out.
Zeb-
If you’ll read Garbe and Venturino’s Primer I believe you’ll learn the cleaning method involving hot water is not necessary. Sometimes I think it’s a myth some folks trot out to scare the tourists. Moose Milk or Windex with vinegar have been working just fine for decades and in most cases takes far less time than removing smokeless powder and copper fouling from “modern” cartridges. Prober lube and bullet fit eliminate lead fouling in almost every case. BP and SPG fouling are easily removed. Garbe sold his lube company years ago but I doubt the formulation or quality have changed.
Mike
January 20, 2023
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Mike, I have read the primer from cover to cover, several times. What I do not see is any discussion about cleaning repeating rifles after shooting black powder cartridges. Venturino, in his book on shooting lever actions, describes his fondness for the Winchester 1873 clones and for shooting black powder in them in Cowboy Action competition. What strikes me about that is the 1873 has removable sideplates.
I’m sure the barrel of an 1886 can be saved from corrosion by promptly cleaning it, using the methods and agents you describe. However, my experience with lever action guns is even smokeless powder residues eventually find their way into the lockwork. It is relatively simple to sluice it out with Ballistol and I need not be meticulous in getting out every last grain.
On the other hand, I’ve seen enough pre-smokeless repeaters with corroded lockwork to wonder what one does to prevent it.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015
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Zebulon said
Mike, I have read the primer from cover to cover, several times. What I do not see is any discussion about cleaning repeating rifles after shooting black powder cartridges. Venturino, in his book on shooting lever actions, describes his fondness for the Winchester 1873 clones and for shooting black powder in them in Cowboy Action competition. What strikes me about that is the 1873 has removable sideplates.
I’m sure the barrel of an 1886 can be saved from corrosion by promptly cleaning it, using the methods and agents you describe. However, my experience with lever action guns is even smokeless powder residues eventually find their way into the lockwork. It is relatively simple to sluice it out with Ballistol and I need not be meticulous in getting out every last grain.
On the other hand, I’ve seen enough pre-smokeless repeaters with corroded lockwork to wonder what one does to prevent it.
My mistake, may have been something he wrote in another book or magazine article, possibly in person or all of the above. In any case it works and most shooters who use Holy Black regularly use the same methods I employ. I’ve been shooting (and cleaning!) BP firearms for over 30 years. I think Venturino was pretty firmly in the Windex camp, I learned about Moose Milk from members of the Cast Boolit forum. I certainly didn’t figure it out on my own! Powder residue in the action is a concern but cleaning a lever gun upside down will greatly reduce the amount of residue in the action. Use any method you’re comfortable with but if you won’t let yourself experience BP shooting because you think it’s too much trouble to clean it’s your own fault, not Holy Black’s.
Mike
January 20, 2023
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Well said. I do intend to try it with my Sharps and might do the same with an 1873 44WCF. After that, I’ll see how I feel about the 45-90. Beforehand, your 5744 will have to serve.
There is one other BP mini-project I’m going to try, replicating what Luke Short used over in Fort Worth (according to some, albeit questionable, accounts.) I have a decent 5″ Colt Army Special in .41 Colt. While not the alleged birdshead Lightning, its lockwork is far more reliable. I’ve got dies and a bag of Starline brass. What I lack are some hollow-based .388 slugs or some “footed” outside lubed bullets of original diameter, depending on how the barrel slugs out. I’ve located a source of cast bullets of both types. At some point, Colt started using the same barrels for .38 WCF and .41 Colt.
Particularly in the case of the skirted slugs, BP would be authentic but also ideal to obturate the bore. And the report and sulfurous smoke would add verisimilitude.
If I can find a suitable torso image of City Marshall/Extortionist Courtwright to superimpose on a 25 yard target, I might allow you the honor of memorializing the end of Longhaired Jim’s career.
Years ago, I picked up a blue and yellow box of Western 200 grain “inside jubricated” smokeless .41 Long cartridges. Likely from the Nineteen Sixties. Not being a cartridge collector and curious to shoot the Colt, I fired a cylinder’s worth at a 10 yard target. I recall the gun recoiled manageably but vigorously and the report was a heavy boom, not a bang. All six rounds stayed on the target, some in the black part, 
and left holes not hard to see. Across a bar room floor, it would have been all a skillful man needed to defend his honor and hand of cards.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
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