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March 14, 2022
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Was lucky enough to become the new owner of this early Winchester model 1895 flat side in 38-72 cal serial #639 applied on June 22, 1896. This is the lowest ser # I’ve owned in a center fire model.
The photos were taken inside so there’s some lighting issues going on but they’re not filtered. Bert feel free to turn them to the correct position if time permits.
Rick C
January 20, 2023
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Rick,
Congratulations on a very nice acquisition. Handsomely kept and early in the life of the model. I have only seen a few flatsides. Inside gun photography is a real chore without a fair amount of equipment. I struggle with it. When you get a nice but overcast day, could you take it outside and show us some more?
A great catch.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
March 14, 2022
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Zebulon said
Rick,
Congratulations on a very nice acquisition. Handsomely kept and early in the life of the model. I have only seen a few flatsides. Inside gun photography is a real chore without a fair amount of equipment. I struggle with it. When you get a nice but overcast day, could you take it outside and show us some more?
A great catch.
Thanks Bill and will do. It’s been pretty warm and sunny here the last few days and not a cloud in the sky. I just couldn’t get my phone to adjust to all the lighting outside that was showing so took them inside.
Rick C
January 20, 2023
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Yeah, photographing high contrast objects – bright reflective steel combined with dark, relatively non-reflective wood — is hard enough without dealing with strong directional light you can’t control and a reflective background.
An old journalism professor, lecturing would-be photojournalists a long time ago,
said the most elaborate studio lighting setup– soft boxes, hair lights, reflector sheets, backgrounds, you name it — are essentially trying to emulate open shade in the morning or early evening.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
December 9, 2002
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Rick,
Congrats and thanks for sharing!
That’s a very nice early Flat side M-1895 rifle. As you’re well aware of, and as you know their hard to find with that much finish on the metal. It’s hard to find a nice flat side in any caliber.
As far as the pics. go yeah I can understand the picture comments, but we’ve seen a lot worse. You can always throw more up on this thread at a later date when time allows and the weather is cooperative! You wouldn’t hurt anyone’s feelings. 
Tony
March 14, 2022
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Thanks Kem And Tony. It might be a little bit overcast in the next few days here and my plan is to try and get some better photos. It really is 85% – 90% condition imo. Original varnish and sights with a nice shiny bore and strong rifling. I had to give up a really nice octagon 2nd variation 1890 and a few thousand cash but I couldn’t decline, especially an early three digit example. As you stated Tony, they’re hard to find and I wouldn’t probably have the opportunity again.
Rick C
September 19, 2014
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The folks who can and do download, and then manipulate pictures will see a much better photo than I am able. From what I see, I would be very happy to own the rifle! Due to problems (slam firing amongst them, if I recall correctly) very, very few got out in 1895, so 1896 is the real start of serious production. Right fine piece! Bet Mark would be trying to own it as well! Tim
March 14, 2022
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Thanks Tim appreciate your comments and you are correct about very few(only 287 from what I read but maybe Brad or Rob has the exact number) left the factory in 1895.
Rick C
January 20, 2023
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Rick, Now that you’ve got us all fired up, a range report would be satisfying to read about.
I’ve always thought the flatside ’95 was especially sleek and would carry well in a scabbard. There are those who find the Model 1895 “awkward to carry” – some people would complain about being hung with a new rope. As you well know, like the Savage 1895/99, Browning’s last lever gun for Winchester was way ahead of its time and quickly adopted by lots of notable outdoorsmen and Lawmen. A number of the Texas Rangers were quick to trade in their pistol cartridge carbines at Petmecky’s in Austin for a 95 Krag SRC.
You probably already know this but I just learned WRA and Savage went head to head in a military rifle competition, 95 against 99. Nobody got a contract because of politics.
When Brad sees this thread, he surely will give us a number of the flatsides produced.
Do I recall correctly that the 38/72 is based on the shorter 45-70 length case and not the longer 45-90? Is the bullet diameter .375? If so, those shouldn’t be too hard to make up.
You are truly fortunate to have such a grand piece of history and I’m very pleased you got it.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
April 15, 2005
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Zebulon said
Is the bullet diameter .375? If so, those shouldn’t be too hard to make up.
You are truly fortunate to have such a grand piece of history and I’m very pleased you got it.
Bill,
Like the 38-55 and the 38-56, the 38-72 WCF was loaded with a .379 diameter bullet.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
January 20, 2023
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.379 – noted. Thanks.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
March 14, 2022
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Bill if I can acquire some reloads, a range report will follow. With the cost of original cartridges, it might be a one shot report 😊
Rick C
November 7, 2015
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Rick C said
Bill if I can acquire some reloads, a range report will follow. With the cost of original cartridges, it might be a one shot report 😊
Rick-
Good luck finding brass. I understand it’s based on the 405 Winchester but Venturino was able to obtain brass from Bertram when he wrote about the 38-72 in “Shooting Leverguns of the Old West”. Interestingly, his loaner test gun was an early flatside very much like yours!
Mike
April 15, 2005
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The 38-72 case can be made using a 405 WCF case, but you will need to turn down the rim from .543″ to .519″. The case lengths are identical as is the base diameter. Simply squeeze the neck from .436″ down to .397″ and reduce the rim diameter.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
January 20, 2023
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Bert H. said
The 38-72 case can be made using a 405 WCF case, but you will need to turn down the rim from .543″ to .519″. The case lengths are identical as is the base diameter. Simply squeeze the neck from .436″ down to .397″ and reduce the rim diameter.
Bert
In the absence of a lathe, has anyone tried turning down rims with a drill press and a file?
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
March 31, 2009
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Zebulon said
Bert H. said
The 38-72 case can be made using a 405 WCF case, but you will need to turn down the rim from .543″ to .519″. The case lengths are identical as is the base diameter. Simply squeeze the neck from .436″ down to .397″ and reduce the rim diameter.
Bert
In the absence of a lathe, has anyone tried turning down rims with a drill press and a file?
Yes, I’ve done it. You will be surprised how hard the rim is. The diameter does not need to be perfectly round but just fit the chamber. I was working on a set up to use my neck turner to trim the rims but never got it done.
November 7, 2015
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Zebulon said
Bert H. said
The 38-72 case can be made using a 405 WCF case, but you will need to turn down the rim from .543″ to .519″. The case lengths are identical as is the base diameter. Simply squeeze the neck from .436″ down to .397″ and reduce the rim diameter.
Bert
In the absence of a lathe, has anyone tried turning down rims with a drill press and a file?
Zeb-
It may be worthwhile to measure the cases and see if the subject 38-72 bolt will handle them. Some older cartridges I’m familiar with the rim dimensions have varied a bit from nominal over the years, especially for non-SAAMI cartridges. I understand SAAMI has specs for the 405 but not the 38-72. OTOH I’d very much prefer to use correct headstamp brass if available.
Mike
January 20, 2023
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Given manufacturing methods of the time, .024 is not a lot of excess. I’d guess there could be enough variance in rim and gun part diameters to allow a necked down 405 case to function, at least some of them.
And if worst came to worst, somebody could wrap a 405 case with painter’s tape for protection, chuck the neck and body into a half-inch drill, and reduce the rim with 60 grit paper, checking constantly with a pre-set caliper.
Happily, I won’t have to struggle with component-finding and modifying to run up 38/72 cartridges. We can all vicariously enjoy friend Rick’s journey through that particular desert and cheer him on while drinking cold beer.
Unless the Aussies are still making some 38/72 brass, anyone waiting on Starline needs to bring lunch and a lantern, based on my experience with a backorder of .41 Colt brass. To their credit, they honored the backorder just short of its second anniversary. Amex let me know about the fact because I’d gotten frustrated and ordered 250 cases.
Last time I looked, Hornady 405 brass was available but at scalpers prices.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 27, 2013
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Buffalo Arms currently has Bertram 38-72 brass in stock:
https://www.buffaloarms.com/38-72-winchester-cases-bertram-ber3872win.html
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