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A thing of beauty!!
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October 25, 2021 - 4:16 pm
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Well, it is pretty.

 

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October 25, 2021 - 4:20 pm
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TXGunNut said
Well, it is pretty.

 

Mike  

Lol. Something about cc 86’s with oct bl in 45-90. Prob just me.

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October 25, 2021 - 5:01 pm
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Nice gun but a typical RIA price.  I would think this gun should have sold for around $15,000.

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October 25, 2021 - 5:05 pm
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Chuck said
Nice gun but a typical RIA price.  I would think this gun should have sold for around $15,000.  

I was thinking the same thing Chuck. Nice cc tho might’ve drove the price up.

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October 25, 2021 - 5:27 pm
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Chuck said
Nice gun but a typical RIA price.  I would think this gun should have sold for around $15,000.  

Well, RIA doesn’t set the price, the bidder and the runner up bidder determines the hammer price, unless shill bidding is involved, which seems unlikely.  What continually amazes me as that bidders are RIA just put all common sense aside and bid up to astronomical ranges, whereas competing auction houses get more sensible bidders who bid more sensibly.  Now, of course, there are items that are exceedingly rare or of exceedingly high condition offered for sale at RIA not avail for auction elsewhere which means, of course, one has to either play with the big boys or simply do without.

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October 25, 2021 - 5:34 pm
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RickC said

Lol. Something about cc 86’s with oct bl in 45-90. Prob just me.

RickC  

86matltr-1.JPGImage Enlarger864590-1.JPGImage Enlarger

Here you go Rick – 45-90 with an octagon barrel – this one has a matted barrel – John Madl research of the 86 records found only 206 matted barrel 86’s (all calibers) so this is a pretty rare one. The nice stuff continues to sell for good money even in this down economy for collectible Winchesters. The 86 is not for sale.

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October 25, 2021 - 5:48 pm
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Burt Humphrey said

86matltr-1.JPGImage Enlarger864590-1.JPGImage Enlarger

Here you go Rick – 45-90 with an octagon barrel – this one has a matted barrel – John Madl research of the 86 records found only 206 matted barrel 86’s (all calibers) so this is a pretty rare one. The nice stuff continues to sell for good money even in this down economy for collectible Winchesters. The 86 is not for sale.  

When comparing yours to the one at RIA, I’m not convinced the RIA rifle hasn’t been helped, Turnbull or otherwise.  It could be just the photographs, but I would want to examine the RIA rifle in person before digging that deeply.

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October 25, 2021 - 5:53 pm
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mrcvs said

When comparing yours to the one at RIA, I’m not convinced the RIA rifle hasn’t been helped, Turnbull or otherwise.  It could be just the photographs, but I would want to examine the RIA rifle in person before digging that deeply.  

First, that is one nice rifle Burt. You have some dandy’s in your collection.

Second, I agree mrcvs. The case color is more than vivid & would lead one to think it’s had some help at some point.

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October 26, 2021 - 12:00 am
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Very vivid case

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October 26, 2021 - 12:15 am
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If it hasn’t I can see why it fetched the price it did.

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October 26, 2021 - 3:16 am
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Look at the metal, look at the wood. Metal in much better condition than the wood. Receiver colors too bright. I may be wrong but I don’t think so. 

 

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October 26, 2021 - 8:21 am
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No, you aren’t wrong.  I had said in a previous post that I thought the rifle that is the subject matter of this thread had been helped.  Now, Burt’s rifle is legitimate and a fine example.

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October 26, 2021 - 9:07 am
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If this is the case, it’s pretty sad when established premier firearms auction houses don’t have experts on hand who can identify & confirm. I’ve never owned a rifle with this much cc so this one really stood out & I thought legit if RIA says so.

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October 26, 2021 - 1:49 pm
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RickC said
If this is the case, it’s pretty sad when established premier firearms auction houses don’t have experts on hand who can identify & confirm. I’ve never owned a rifle with this much cc so this one really stood out & I thought legit if RIA says so.  

Telling the truth hurts the bottom line.  A lower hammer price means less commission.

There are many folks who rely strictly on what an auction house writes, the purchasers themselves might view a firearm as an investment and know very little about them.  This is why RIA takes out full page ads in The Wall Street Journal.  To attrac the big bucks!

You have to do your own research and NEVER rely on what the auction house says.  

So what we might have now is not a nearly pristine example, but just a pretty rifle, as refinished or at least improved.  Possibly only worth a fraction of the hammer price.

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October 26, 2021 - 2:02 pm
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mrcvs said

Telling the truth hurts the bottom line.  A lower hammer price means less commission.

There are many folks who rely strictly on what an auction house writes, the purchasers themselves might view a firearm as an investment and know very little about them.  This is why RIA takes out full page ads in The Wall Street Journal.  To attrac the big bucks!

You have to do your own research and NEVER rely on what the auction house says.  
So what we might have now is not a nearly pristine example, but just a pretty rifle, as refinished or at least improved.  Possibly only worth a fraction of the hammer price.  

Good advice mrcvs. I would be sick to find out the latter. Is there a way to determine new case color ? As already stated, the wood or bluing might suggest otherwise. Obviously RIA felt it was…

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October 26, 2021 - 5:22 pm
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Personally, I like to see some “wear” in the case coloring – it just gives you some confidence about the gun being right. Attached is a case hardened 73 from my collection – see the “wear” of the coloring at the carry point – the gun is right!

73dlx-1.jpgImage Enlarger73r-1.jpgImage Enlarger

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October 26, 2021 - 7:29 pm
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They are indeed vivid.  Cant claim to be an expert or connoisseur of certain high condition guns or CCH, but looking at the CCH on the receiver of the RIA rifle, it appears to have a similar pattern coverage to Burt’s, and if you zoom in on the receiver you can see the loss of CCH in the forge marks at places or interruptions in the CCH in the forge marks (if refreshed, would expect them to be filled in with color) and other blemishes in the metal. When comparing the color pattern on vivid 1894 CCH on levers, the colors follow the similar/same pattern – brown, blue, green, yellow, red.  If it were helped, would the CCH voids be present or absent in the forge marks, or would it have the right color/pattern.  The one thing I dont like are the browns moving to the outside of the receiver flats (darker blues that have toned to brown?).  Then zoom in and look at the polishing pattern in the receiver metal and lever.  Just an observation, doesnt mean what Im seeing makes it right.   Always welcome comments as to why folks think things are either right or wrong, thats how you learn.   

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October 26, 2021 - 8:51 pm
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Thank you Chris for piping in here. Although not my rifle, appreciate you taking the time to study this piece. RIA might be correct after all ??‍♂️

As I read your comments I started to think, is there anybody that would actually be able to confirm or deny its authenticity.
Who’s that one person or persons living that you know & has the most knowledge about authenticating case color.

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October 26, 2021 - 9:52 pm
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RickC said
RIA might be correct after all ??‍♂️

Extremely doubtful.

As already pointed out, there are dings and other blemishes in the wood.  And yet the case colouring remains pristine?

Additionally, the sight elevator was adjusted enough to cause wear to the bluing such that even some bare steel is evident.  And yet the case colouring remains pristine?

It would not have been this vivid originally, but more muted like with Burt’s rifles.

There is no way this remains in factory original condition.

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