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Zebulon said
I do question that the American was an offshoot of the Russian cartridge because, at least according to Roy Jenks, Smith & Wesson first attempted to interest the Russian government in its large frame revolver chambered for a heel-bullet 44 of its design, which only later was named 44 American, after the Russkies insisted on an inside lubed bullet.
The design improvements of the Russian model were incorporated into the 2nd model #3, so that it too fired the larger Russian cartridge. About 6500 1st model #3s had been made for the heel-bullet .44/100, 3000 of which were issued to troops for testing. But before the #3 was officially adopted, the Schofield model replaced it, chambered for a short .45 Colt cartridge, since Colt had won a contract previously, & the Army wanted both revolvers to fire the same ammo.
TR said
Chuck,Nice pictures and a nice Henry, it looks as nice outside as inside.
I only count four toes on your left foot. T/R
Sorry, I did edit the pic for email purposes but I wanted to post the better pic.
Jeremy, Thanks. At my age any time saved is like money in the bank.
Bill
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
clarence said
The design improvements of the Russian model were incorporated into the 2nd model #3, so that it too fired the larger Russian cartridge.
Clarence, was the Russian case diameter increased in addition to decreasing the diameter of the flat base bullet?
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
I don’t know what others have done over the years to convert to center fire. The only portion of the original striker that is needed is just enough to thread a piece of it on the firing pin. The conversions that I have seen appear to have a small threaded bushing. I’m sure any machinist could make this. Same for the end of the firing pin. A small tit has to be added. When Winchester made the ones for Brazil they used a bushing but I have no idea what was used for the firing pin?
The Henry, 66 and 73 use different pins. The Henry and 66 look the same but are different lengths.
Since Winchester Bob makes the 2 parts that have to then be modified I have considered buying these. I used to walk the shows to pick for a dealer and I really can’t remember seeing Henry parts for sale. I’m sure they are out there but probably hard to find and expensive, especially a parts gun.
If you read Development of the Henry Cartridge by R. Bruce McDowell you will see bullet diameters from .434″ to .443″. I did slug the bore of my 66 and Henry. The bore is closer to .443″. I also have about 90 cartridges and I measured some of these. I swedged some 220 gr. 45 Colt bullets to .443″. I then cut the heal.
The only person I know, now that Dan has passed away, is Lou Behling that I would consider a cartridge expert. I know Lou is working on a new book/article on the Henry cartridges. He has told me that there were over a dozen manufactures of the Henry cartridge. The last Wards auction had at least 6 different examples. I only collect the earlier short case pointed ones. These have an impressed area with a raised H. These are the ones that were in the 100 round boxes too.
Zebulon said
Clarence, was the Russian case diameter increased in addition to decreasing the diameter of the flat base bullet?
Just enough to enclose the full-dia base; would have been an easy job to ream 1st model #3 cylinders of the Henry case diameter to accept the Russian, just the thickness of the brass. It’s like the diff between the various .32 RFs using heel bullets & the inside-lubed .32 S&W; to convert the RFs to .32 S&W, it’s only necessary to ream the chamber with a hand-reamer, & change the firing pin.
Clarence, understood, but did the Russian chambered revolvers made by Smith use the .429-.430 bullet subsequently continued in the Special or the larger diameter 44/100 slug?
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Chuck, between you and Tim, I can see I’ve got some reading to do.
Tough job, I’ve told my wife, but somebody’s got to do it [instead of mowing the lawn.]
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Zebulon said
Clarence, understood, but did the Russian chambered revolvers made by Smith use the .429-.430 bullet subsequently continued in the Special or the larger diameter 44/100 slug?
Russian was .429, according to Barnes.
Ok, I’m out of my area here but. The Model 3 S&W included the Americans, Russian and Schofield. S&W had a long connection with the development of the Volcanic and eventually the Winchester. So they were very familiar with the Henry round. The first S&W’s about 1870 used the Henry cartridge. The Model 3 revolver was of a superior construction but the round was not. So in 1870 the 44/100 was developed using a Berdan primer for the Model 3 revolvers. In 1871 Frankford Arsenal made some Martin primed rounds but never went anywhere because the Benet primed were cheaper and easier. In 1872 the boxer version was introduced and called the 44 S&W American. In the meantime in 1871 the Russian cartridge stated development. It went through many changes until 1887. The 45 Schofield came out about 1875. Later in 1907 the 44 S&W Spl. 1955 the 44 Mag.
I do not have examples of the 44 caliber cartridges. I do have some 45 cartridges. The Schofield is shorter than the Colt and eventually the Military stopped using the Colt. They had a lot of the Schofield ammo and didn’t want to support 2 cartridges since the shorter Schofield would fire in the Colt.
Zebulon said
Chuck, between you and Tim, I can see I’ve got some reading to do.Tough job, I’ve told my wife, but somebody’s got to do it [instead of mowing the lawn.]
I know. Tim has caused me to buy a few more books too. If you want to research the Henry I can give you a list of the currently available books. There is only about 4. Bruce McDowell did a lot of work that is no longer in print. If Lou would come to Cody we could all learn so much.
The best books on the Model 3’s is S&W Six Guns of the West by David R. Chicoine and Smith & Wesson American Model in US and Foreign Service by Charles Pate.
Chuck said
I do not have examples of the 44 caliber cartridges. I do have some 45 cartridges. The Schofield is shorter than the Colt and eventually the Military stopped using the Colt. They had a lot of the Schofield ammo and didn’t want to support 2 cartridges since the shorter Schofield would fire in the Colt.
I was under the impression that after the Schofield was adopted, the only new ammo issued (to prevent confusion) was the .45 Short; but perhaps not. I’ve always wondered why the Army didn’t simply require S&W to lengthen the cylinder on the Schofield, except that would have required a new frame, so too time-consuming a mod, I guess, to meet the Army’s needs. But in combat, I’d sure as hell have preferred the quick reloading of the Schofield to the cumbersome Colt, even if its cartridge was slightly more powerful. Imagine trying to reload a Colt SA on horseback…with hostiles swarming around you; good thing you’ve got a sabre.
There are two things with which I live on terms of mutual hatred: horses and internal combustion engines. I could not load a Colt SAA while riding or driving, without blowing off a kneecap.
Airplanes are another matter.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
I am late getting back into this. Clarence needed to bail me out as i was bass ackwards on the .44 Russian, etc. First came the .44 American no. 3 for the S&W no. 3. I am not educated on S&W etc, so have some excuse, kind of. The .44 Russian made the case longer and of course the bullet changed. FWIW, Cartridges of the World said the Special later was an elongation of the Russian, and of course the Magnum a further elongation. Chuck, Ray Giles is still around and knows things. Maybe he will be at Cody, but its doubtful as he doesn’t travel so much now. If you and/or I make Greeley next year I about bet Ray will be there as its closer. Zeb—I about have too many books! I can never find what I want when I want! This morning was a search and destroy mission trying to find another item I knew was in the house. Finally found it but took an awful long time. Seems to be the story of my life now days.
Talked to Ray in Greeley. I believe this is the only show he attends? Hopefully he shows at Cody. Lou Behling worked for at least 3 maybe 4 Arsenals. He is a small arms specialist. Shot on the US Team.
Chuck, I about bet you are correct that Greeley is the only one now that Ray attends. I suppose we or you or I could call and ask him questions over the phone? At this point I am not so sure just what to ask? Let’s get together at Cody and decide just what questions on cartridge development we wish him to expound on. Then we can maybe appear smart enough to entice him to answer us. Tim PS. Maybe you can try the same with your fellow?
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