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November 7, 2015
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I believe you proved something Chuck touched on, Bill. IMHO the best way own a quality restoration is to buy one someone else already had restored. Well played!
Mike
June 4, 2017
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Chuck said
It wasn’t an experiment. You just proved one of our points. The travesty was when the one rifle was messed up. I would have felt better to have the pair in original condition.
Well said. T/R
March 20, 2009
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Not too long ago there was Turnbull restored Winchester Model 1892 that was auctioned on Gunbroker by Lock Stock & Barrel out of Cody, WY. It sold for $4200. In the series of photo for the sale was a page of the the Turnbull invoice for the work. The subtotal on page 1 of 2 was $5,940!!! And there were most likely more costs on page 2!! By this example it makes NO financial sense to buy a rifle, spend the money to restore it and then sell it for A LOT less than your total investment.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
May 2, 2009
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Its the same for a restored car. The guy that pays for the restoration will never get his money out of it unless its was done a long time ago when the cost were cheaper. Its better to buy one that has already been restored than you taking the hit on the restore. It has to be a really rare car to come out ahead.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
November 19, 2006
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twobit said
Not too long ago there was Turnbull restored Winchester Model 1892 that was auctioned on Gunbroker by Lock Stock & Barrel out of Cody, WY. It sold for $4200. In the series of photo for the sale was a page of the the Turnbull invoice for the work. The subtotal on page 1 of 2 was $5,940!!! And there were most likely more costs on page 2!! By this example it makes NO financial sense to buy a rifle, spend the money to restore it and then sell it for A LOT less than your total investment.
Michael
Michael – very interesting.
I know that much of the time a Turnbull restoration involves a new barrel and new wood. In the case of this M1892, it is clear from the invoice that the original barrel and wood were retained. That invoice sure gave me some sticker shock. I suppose it would be even more today. All of that to end up with a refinished rifle. Not for me.
This is by far, my least conditioned M1894. It’s also my favorite. I guess I’m just a different kind of guy.
(.32 Special of course)
November 7, 2015
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1873man said
Its the same for a restored car. The guy that pays for the restoration will never get his money out of it unless its was done a long time ago when the cost were cheaper. Its better to buy one that has already been restored than you taking the hit on the restore. It has to be a really rare car to come out ahead.
Bob
Very true, I have been out of the antique & classic auto auction circle since my dad died but that was certainly the case. In more recent years I worked with a resto-mod company that would occasionally build a special vehicle for sale but the marketing effort was a significant factor. There were folks who would commission a restoration, take it to a few shows until they got bored with it and sell it at a loss. Some had a collection of similar cars. I doubt any of them expected to recoup their investment. It seems pride of ownership sometimes comes with a hefty price tag. Maybe we’re seeing the same thing with restored and modified collectible firearms.
Mike
January 20, 2023
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I have a comment and a question.
First the comment. Since I have become a member of WACA, and developed more than a few excellent friendships with other members, I have many times heard the words “collectible”, “shooter”, and variations of “non-collectible” some of which are unprintable.
While the meaning of these words surely varies a bit from member to member, here is my understanding of a broad, general consensus:
A “Collectible” Winchester means one that is in unmodified original condition, with original finishes of as low as, say, 80% for antiques to a minimum of, say, 95% for anything made after World War Ii. Antique bores are not important but late bores are. Is that pretty close?
A “Shooter” is one that looks like a Collector but has been significantly modified and probably, but competently, refinished. It cannot become a Collector grade gun, no matter what is done to it. Many members own and use them.
A “Non-collectible” is one that has been abused to the extent it no longer fairly exemplifies the brand and should probably be parted out.
Now the question: is there a Winchester with condition below which – economics aside — it doesn’t matter whether it’s restored or not?
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
June 4, 2017
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This Forum has a broad spectrum of Winchester collectors. There is no general rule that can be applied to all Winchesters vintages from the 1860s to 1964. Once you add history and or ownership of a firearm all rules are off. When you restore to new condition a gun with known history it lessens the history. Anything done to an antique gun with history after period of usage other than repair of broken parts is value negative.
Speaking for myself, when I hold an old gun with history in my hand and shoot, I want to feel what it’s period owner felt. T/R
September 19, 2014
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I don’t have the gift of the English language as Zeb does, so bear with me please. First, this is my opinion only and not some ordinance that stands firm in the annals of time. I don’t think there is any answer that is inherently right or wrong for everyone. If you own a Winchester of any condition it is yours to do with as you see fit for you and you only. Simply put, a low grade rifle is collectible if it makes you happy and you can afford it without taking food out of your or other’s mouths. IF you intend to fully get your money back or even make a profit, then the rules change in the moment and you then need to purchase what will sell readily for more than you paid. The value of pride of ownership is not able to be computed, but has its bearing on that person. This includes “restored” firearms. None of this means I have to like what you own or buy what you sell. I buy and collect what I LIKE AND CAN AFFORD! My tastes have no bearing on what you do or don’t do. I can only say what I may like and that changes with time, experience, and income. All else is pure conjecture that should have no bearing on anyone but the prospective owner. Yes, there are times I think, “how sad! Wish that had not been done to that fine rifle!” But that does not give me the right or responsibility to judge a person and their motives. Too many are too quick to impose their values (and ethics) on others in my opinion as well. Tim
March 20, 2009
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tim tomlinson said
I don’t have the gift of the English language as Zeb does, so bear with me please. First, this is my opinion only and not some ordinance that stands firm in the annals of time. I don’t think there is any answer that is inherently right or wrong for everyone. If you own a Winchester of any condition it is yours to do with as you see fit for you and you only. Simply put, a low grade rifle is collectible if it makes you happy and you can afford it without taking food out of your or other’s mouths. IF you intend to fully get your money back or even make a profit, then the rules change in the moment and you then need to purchase what will sell readily for more than you paid. The value of pride of ownership is not able to be computed, but has its bearing on that person. This includes “restored” firearms. None of this means I have to like what you own or buy what you sell. I buy and collect what I LIKE AND CAN AFFORD! My tastes have no bearing on what you do or don’t do. I can only say what I may like and that changes with time, experience, and income. All else is pure conjecture that should have no bearing on anyone but the prospective owner. Yes, there are times I think, “how sad! Wish that had not been done to that fine rifle!” But that does not give me the right or responsibility to judge a person and their motives. Too many are too quick to impose their values (and ethics) on others in my opinion as well. Tim
SO perfectly said. Too many people judge and misjudge others in this world by thinking that only their reasoning or values are the only thing that is correct. Surely we do not need to do that in this community. My own needs, wants, desires, wishes, and the amount of money I have to fulfill them may be different than someones else but that does not allow either of us to think more or less than the other.
Collect 90%, 10%, restored or not. Make yourself happy. Your happiness yardstick should not be someone else’s acceptance of your choice.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
November 7, 2015
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I think there may be nearly as many definitions of “collectible” as there are collectors. I know that many of the Winchesters I consider “collectible” will not appeal to all collectors. I’m OK with that, I bought it to study and enjoy. Higher condition examples are certainly more sought after and easier to sell when the time comes but I enjoy shooting and studying the somewhat lower condition examples because I enjoy the character honest wear brings to the party. I’ve sold the few very high condition firearms I’ve purchased because they had no character and I was hesitant to shoot or hunt with them. It’s fortunate we all have different likes and interests, this hobby would be very boring if we were all chasing the same guns for the same reasons.
Mike
March 31, 2009
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I’ve said many times the first rule of collecting is to collect what you like. But, these guns will live on way past any of us. I just hate to see them ruined for future generations. Yes when you own it you can do what you like, but we will only own them for a short time. Once modified they can’t go back.
January 20, 2023
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Well, I will only say the definitions I drafted are not at all what I think they should be, but rather are my attempt to distill the posts of others since I joined in 2023. Perhaps I have erred.
I certainly concur with the spirit of your collective answers — that’s the way it should be.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
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