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April 26, 2019
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To restore a collectible Winchester or not?
That is a question you often see asked on the WACA Forum. The conventional wisdom is, no, don’t do it. Once a collectible item has been altered, it loses originality (and dollar value).
Turnbull Restoration holds the other view – that a quality restoration that is completely faithful to the original preserves its historical value. To quote the Turnbull website, “When someone asks if restoration will affect the value of the firearm, remind them that the Statue of Liberty, the Washington Monument, the Star Spangled Banner and… the Declaration of Independence have all undergone restoration…”.
We have the unique opportunity to test these opposing views. Currently, two Winchester Model 1876s are up for auction on the Kidd Family Auction in Melancthon, Ontario. Both have certified NWMP provenance and they both come with the paperwork to prove it. One is an unaltered original rated by the auctioneer as VG condition, including the bore. The other has been restored by Turnbull Restoration and is rated as EXCELLENT.
These two rifles are being offered in the same auction on the same day. Bidding is open now. At the time of writing the current bids are $7,050 CAD for the unaltered rifle and $7,600 CAD for the Turnbull restoration. Bidding closes on March 26, 2026.
Note: those values are in Canadian dollars. The exchange rate is currently $0.725. To convert to US dollars, multiply by 0.725.
You can see these rifles and you can watch the bidding in progress. I have attached the links below.
https://www.liveauctionworld.com/1316-WINCHESTER-MODEL-1876-NWMP-CARBINE-IN-45-75_i59296268
https://www.liveauctionworld.com/1313-WINCHESTER-MODEL-1876-NWMP-CARBINE-IN-4575_i59295857
Pete Hynard, Ontario, Canada
November 7, 2015
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I know Turnbull will on occasion counsel against restoration. I’m also pretty confident the consignor of the Turnbull 1876 is a bit disappointed with the current bid. I truly enjoy looking at DT’s work but commissioning his services with the intent to resell is not a good plan, IMHO. I think someday that will change, could be that change is already underway. The demographics of the purist collector seem to suggest a trend away from original, high condition specimens but for now they still seem to be bringing top dollar at the big auctions. This auction will indeed be interesting but as sometimes happens the end result may be skewed by a bidding war that may have nothing to do with the current market conditions. I’d be proud to own either rifle!
Mike
May 2, 2009
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Your not comparing them correctly. If you do you take the cost of buying the original and say it sells at 7000 CAD and now you add the cost of the Turnbull restore to it. The other one, someone had to do the same thing with it. I would guess the guy selling the restored one might be loosing money depending on how long ago he had it restored.
Turnbulls argument about the Statue of Liberty, the Declaration of Independence and Washington Monument does not compare since they are one of a kind things and you have to do upkeep on them or they will deteriorate and disappear.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
November 7, 2015
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I like Turnbull’s argument but it conveniently ignores the resale value angle. The items he cites will never be for sale.
Mike
March 31, 2009
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Turnbull’s statements are just a sales pitch. A restored gun is just that, a restored gun. Often many parts have been replaced too. The wood and barrel are often replaced.
April 26, 2019
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June 4, 2017
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Chuck said
Turnbull’s statements are just a sales pitch. A restored gun is just that, a restored gun. Often many parts have been replaced too. The wood and barrel are often replaced.
I have to agree with Chuck. Many of the restored guns are a mix of new, old, and original parts. Most have new wood, barrel, and tube. On engraved guns sometimes even the receiver is swapped. In the case of 1 of 1000s the old barrel finds it’s way to another gun with the same serial number.
Unless it’s got history, sentimental value, or is really rare I don’t see it. But if you do, keep the parts with the gun. T/R
May 14, 2025
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TR said
Chuck said
Turnbull’s statements are just a sales pitch. A restored gun is just that, a restored gun. Often many parts have been replaced too. The wood and barrel are often replaced.
I have to agree with Chuck. Many of the restored guns are a mix of new, old, and original parts. Most have new wood, barrel, and tube. On engraved guns sometimes even the receiver is swapped. In the case of 1 of 1000s the old barrel finds it’s way to another gun with the same serial number.
Unless it’s got history, sentimental value, or is really rare I don’t see it. But if you do, keep the parts with the gun. T/R
I agree. If it’s restored and has multiple new parts and wood, then it isn’t really the same gun and I’d struggle giving it any original value. Having said that, I love the idea of having both an original and a TB restored rifle in a collection. I think in this case, if you had an original NWMP with all its well earned history and the restored one side by side well to me it is the best of both worlds. I think the 2 side by side are a wonderful and beautiful story board! Mad shout out and appreciation to Pete for sharing!! Excited to see the auction results!
May 14, 2025
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In the realm of crazy coincidence, I own the NWMP serial #40012 (link below) and the restored TB NWMP is 40008 and per the Cody letter was received in the warehouse the same day and shipped out on the same day and in the same order # as the TB restored one currently for sale. To add to our experiment I will offer I paid $8500 US last Sept and acquired my NWMP from Morphy’s auction. Total $10,445 with the BP!
One very massive difference we will have to factor is Morphy charges a 23% Buyers Premium while Kidd is only charging 8%. Have I mentioned how much I hate Morphy? They charge the highest fees in the Industry and provide the absolute worst service. Just hate sometimes they got the goods!
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=641809
April 26, 2019
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Thanks for sharing that, Buck. Nice rifle!
Pete
April 26, 2019
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The bidding is over. The unaltered original sold for $9,292.50 CAD (including buyer’s premium) and the Turnbull restoration went for $13,662.00 CAD. That works out to $6,737.02 and $9,904.90 in US dollars.
I was surprised. Were you?
These links will take you there:
Pete
https://www.liveauctionworld.com/1316-WINCHESTER-MODEL-1876-NWMP-CARBINE-IN-45-75_i59296268
https://www.liveauctionworld.com/1313-WINCHESTER-MODEL-1876-NWMP-CARBINE-IN-4575_i59295857
June 4, 2017
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So the restored gun brought ruffly $3200 US more than the original non restore. I wonder what it cost to have the gun restored by Turnbull? Did the party that had it restored get a return or loss? If your a collector does it matter? T/R
March 31, 2009
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Last year 5 Winchesters that were restored by Rogers Winchesters sold at a Gunslingers Auction. 4 were 1873’s and the other one was a 1876. None of them sold for what the restoration costs were. Most sold for about half price but one did sell for 75% of the restoration cost. I might have some info but I can’t guarantee it. The descriptions all said that they were professionally restored.
My Mentor and Roger did a lot of guns together and I used to hang out at Rogers shop so I have a lot of knowledge of the process and costs.
December 12, 2019
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Pete Hynard said
The bidding is over. The unaltered original sold for $9,292.50 CAD (including buyer’s premium) and the Turnbull restoration went for $13,662.00 CAD. That works out to $6,737.02 and $9,904.90 in US dollars.
I was surprised. Were you?
These links will take you there:
Pete
https://www.liveauctionworld.com/1316-WINCHESTER-MODEL-1876-NWMP-CARBINE-IN-45-75_i59296268
https://www.liveauctionworld.com/1313-WINCHESTER-MODEL-1876-NWMP-CARBINE-IN-4575_i59295857
Not surprised. ‘Bright and shiny’ will beat out ‘real and original’ in most any venue where the uneducated and ignorant masses are involved.
If those auctions were restricted to people who frequent this forum, or otherwise knowledgeable collectors, then, yes, I’d be surprised.
Paul
Nevada Paul
Life Member NRA
November 19, 2006
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Chuck said
Last year 5 Winchesters that were restored by Rogers Winchesters sold at a Gunslingers Auction. 4 were 1873’s and the other one was a 1876. None of them sold for what the restoration costs were. Most sold for about half price but one did sell for 75% of the restoration cost. I might have some info but I can’t guarantee it. The descriptions all said that they were professionally restored.
My Mentor and Roger did a lot of guns together and I used to hang out at Rogers shop so I have a lot of knowledge of the process and costs.
The descriptions all said that they were professionally restored.
I think there’s a lot of difference when the items are described as, “professionally restored” vs. Turnbull restored. I’ve heard Roger’s Winchester restorations were top notch, but the Turnbull name seems to be almost magical to many buyers. I don’t really wade into this much as I don’t like restored guns.
November 7, 2015
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Depending on the timing and extent of the restoration I’d suspect the seller of the restored gun is disappointed unless it’s an estate. The sale price is probably not far from today’s cost of the restoration but I haven’t kept up with their pricing.
Mike
November 7, 2015
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Depending on the timing and extent of the restoration I’d suspect the seller of the restored gun is disappointed unless it’s an estate. The sale price is probably not far from today’s cost of the restoration but I haven’t kept up with their pricing.
Mike
May 14, 2025
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Nevada Paul said
Pete Hynard said
The bidding is over. The unaltered original sold for $9,292.50 CAD (including buyer’s premium) and the Turnbull restoration went for $13,662.00 CAD. That works out to $6,737.02 and $9,904.90 in US dollars.
I was surprised. Were you?
These links will take you there:
Pete
https://www.liveauctionworld.com/1316-WINCHESTER-MODEL-1876-NWMP-CARBINE-IN-45-75_i59296268
https://www.liveauctionworld.com/1313-WINCHESTER-MODEL-1876-NWMP-CARBINE-IN-4575_i59295857
Not surprised. ‘Bright and shiny’ will beat out ‘real and original’ in most any venue where the uneducated and ignorant masses are involved.
If those auctions were restricted to people who frequent this forum, or otherwise knowledgeable collectors, then, yes, I’d be surprised.
Paul
Well, slight wrinkle here. I do frequent this Forum and I bought the restored one 😀 Apologies I ruined this experiment, as without me the previous high bidder would have won the restored rifle for about a thousand less than the original went for. He had a max bid in at $12,600 that forced me to go to $12,650 or$13,662 with buyers premium to win it. To be clear, I would not have paid that much for it BUT for the fact I already owned 40012. The exact same 1876 only 3 serial #’s away that per the Cody letter was manufactured on the same day, moved to the warehouse on the same day and sold in the same lot of 50 rifles to the RCMP on the same day. Thus these 2 rifles were likely owned and used by 2 Mounties who were friends and saw similar action. My 40012 is all original, glorious and dripping with every bit of its well earned history! The Restoration is simply a beautiful version of how this beauty looked on day one almost 150 years ago! My opinion is these 2 rifles are brothers and I had an obligation to reconnect them once again since they began life together. If I could only have one of them the original wins hands down, but together and with their shared history they really compliment each other! The reality is most of the 1876 rifles in that batch of 50 have likely been destroyed so what are the odds we reconnected these 2 almost 150 years later! Thank you brother Pete! I owe you my friend! I hope most of you can agree it would have been a travesty and historic loss to not reunite this beautiful pair!
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