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January 28, 2017 - 2:38 pm
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Just curious as to why is a professional re-bluing so detrimental to the value of a gun. Are there any instances where it would not devalue the gun so much. I guess what I am asking is most folks treat a re- blued gun like it has the plague. I have seen some very beautiful jobs out there. I do understand that an unmolested gun is desirable, just as any other  antique you might be interested in. It just seams like with guns it is taboo .

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January 28, 2017 - 2:52 pm
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slk, and others,

  Let me take a stab here, although others may well have other opinions or express themselves better than I.  On this forum, we generally are talking about collectible Winchesters.  As such, when one is reblued, the originality is destroyed.  Far better for the well used, but original, finish to be preserved than totally replaced.  There is, of course, the situation where a “collectible” has deteriorated to the point that it may well be more advantageous to have a professional RESTORATION accomplished.  This is not just a reblue by the local gunsmith, but a refinish using period correct procedures, and thus returning the piece to the way it was when it left the factory.  This is far more expensive than a “reblue”, usually such as to only be worth while for some heirloom piece or other Emotionally significant item.  Then there is the effort to “fake” a piece to say it is “original” when in fact it is redone.  There is enough of that going on to have cast a pall over many nice collectibles.

  What I have said above does not apply to more modern, day in and day out shooting firearms.  I would rather have a current production shotgun reblued or other type of finish rather than have rust spotting from getting wet during a duck hunt in bad weather, etc.  Potentially, my grand dad’s Remington Model 11 could become a collectible, and having reblued it and making it nice once more may become a sin in future, but not now.  

  Hope this helps.

Tim Tomlinson

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January 28, 2017 - 3:28 pm
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Tim is absolutely right.  Another problem with re-bluing is that the original metal is “polished” to such a degree that the factory markings are often worn down significantly and, in some cases, totally worn off.

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January 28, 2017 - 7:14 pm
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Understood…I was referring to period correct bluing. The cost was not the issue of my question though. I know that it is not cheap. Me personally I would rather have a gun that was not touched by buffing or sanding of the wood. I have seen some that really did look great. I just don’t understand why they are shunned to the point no one is interested in them. After all they are basically the same wood the same metal, and lived through the same history. When we are young we all did stupid things. I remember being young and if I got a nick in one of my hunting guns I might sand that nick out, or steel wool the heck out of a barrel to get rust off. Big mistakes were made. To doctor a gun up for the purpose of fooling someone is not morally right. I guess my point is that I have seen some guns that have been restored that I would be proud to own….I am not arguing the point that an unmolested gun is the most desirable. A good parable would be if you owned a rifle that Buffalo Bill owned and it had been restored it would still be Buffalo Bills rifle…

 

Steve

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January 28, 2017 - 7:35 pm
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Steve and others,

  First, let me say there are folks with professionally restored Winchesters who are justifiably proud of them as they are beauties in their own right.  But let me jump to a “war story” that I swear is true.  Many years ago I was in the shop of Harry Lawson in Tucson.  He had a Model 1876 rifle that was a veritable POS in a box, that he was to “restore”.  It was caliber .45-75, half octagon barrel, smooth bored.  It was in pieces, well rusted and pitted.  Harry was in the process of welding the pits with a rod that would match the relatively low carbon steel of the old rifle.  Then he would draw file, etc, until the metal surface was perfect, and send it to a fellow he knew who would remark the manufacturing data, model data, serial number.  Harry would then blue it so the finish was apparently correct for its age (according to Harry anyway).  He was working on a piece of highly figured wood, and said he would “age” it so it looked correct to the age of the piece.  Harry claimed that when done, no one could detect that it was “restored”.  He would not let me record the serial number,so I am unable to say whether that particular piece has ever resurfaced.  My question, which then gets to the nub of this really, is was this a “restoration” or an effort to later pass the piece off as an “original condition” rarity?  Perhaps, just perhaps, the person paying for Harry to do this was totally honest and only restoring a trashed out piece that otherwise would be totally lost to history.  Would it be financially worth what it was going to cost?  What is the impact then on any similar rifles that are original?

Tim

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January 28, 2017 - 8:30 pm
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Seeing the unreal high bids voluntarily paid at classy auction houses for some beautifully restored firearms make me cringe but its their money. They obviously do not see any loss of value in restorations. And there are a lot of these people who consider them collectible, and proudly display their beauties. After all, most people don’t know the first thing about classic firearms and just see a thing of beauty and classic engineering. And that’s fine, I like seeing them to, restored or not.

But seeing assembled fake-collectibles or restoration being presented as original firearms, even at the same fine auction houses, is an outrage and a crime of forgery as far as I’m concerned. Whether at an auction house or online, if someone with the expertise, and who can demonstrate the evidence, sees this happening …. Don’t they have a responsibility to bring this to light? Not actually notifying the house, or the authorities, but exposing it where it can be found online. That’s what, in my opinion, we do when we discuss the questions we have about whether a example is correct or restored. I guess you guy do a great service to the world of Winchester, know it or not.

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January 28, 2017 - 9:51 pm
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tim tomlinson said
Steve and others,

  First, let me say there are folks with professionally restored Winchesters who are justifiably proud of them as they are beauties in their own right.  But let me jump to a “war story” that I swear is true.  Many years ago I was in the shop of Harry Lawson in Tucson.  He had a Model 1876 rifle that was a veritable POS in a box, that he was to “restore”.  It was caliber .45-75, half octagon barrel, smooth bored.  It was in pieces, well rusted and pitted.  Harry was in the process of welding the pits with a rod that would match the relatively low carbon steel of the old rifle.  Then he would draw file, etc, until the metal surface was perfect, and send it to a fellow he knew who would remark the manufacturing data, model data, serial number.  Harry would then blue it so the finish was apparently correct for its age (according to Harry anyway).  He was working on a piece of highly figured wood, and said he would “age” it so it looked correct to the age of the piece.  Harry claimed that when done, no one could detect that it was “restored”.  He would not let me record the serial number,so I am unable to say whether that particular piece has ever resurfaced.  My question, which then gets to the nub of this really, is was this a “restoration” or an effort to later pass the piece off as an “original condition” rarity?  Perhaps, just perhaps, the person paying for Harry to do this was totally honest and only restoring a trashed out piece that otherwise would be totally lost to history.  Would it be financially worth what it was going to cost?  What is the impact then on any similar rifles that are original?

Tim  

Now that was the answer I was wanting to hear. Original non molested condition = peace of mind that it is an original example of some of the finest guns ever made, and the better that condition will determine it’s true value compared to others that have not been tampered with. You have to have that base line to start with…………………….

Thanks Tim and everyone else who has replied. It makes you have  much more appreciation for the finer examples.

 

Steve

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January 29, 2017 - 12:59 am
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There is a difference in the type of guns too. The shotgun crowd would rather have a reblued gun if it done right than have a gun with a blemish. For them its about impressing the other guy and showing off at the skeet range. The rifle guys want collectability which means it has to be original. Now there are guys that want restored rifles since they can buy them cheaper and they don’t have to worry about damaging them plus they can impress their friends that don’t know a thing about guns. I have a brother that had a great collection of Winchester rifles and he changed his mind and only wanted restored for some of those reasons. He started to buy projects guns and have them restored. One of the guns was a 73 deluxe engraved carbine in full nickle. He could own a real rare gun at a fraction of the price. Another brother and I gladly bought all his original guns.

Bob

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January 29, 2017 - 3:57 am
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A dealer with over 30 yrs experience in handling high-grade antiques (cartridge guns, I mean) told me that there’s now a segment of the market that actually “collects” Doug Turnbull restorations–rich guys who like genuine, old guns, not repros, but just aren’t satisfied if they don’t look as new as their latest Porsche or Mercedes.  I was shocked to hear it, but then my “newest” vehicle is a ’99 GMC truck.

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