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I have been trying to get my old First Model 1894 .38-55 to work properly since sourcing the missing flat spring in the left cartridge guide and the correct carrier. This 1894 has some features that are not quite the same as the vast majority of 1894’s such as the guides being fastened from the outside of the receiver. The guides seem to be correct and because they are unique to only the First Models all of which were .38-55 , or so I have read, I assume that they are correct and original. When cycled the action seems to work well but the carrier snaps up quite forcefully when the bolt moves back flipping the cartridge out of the gun. This is not a gun that I intend to shoot any longer but I would like to get it working as it was intended. Any help with what might be causing this problem would be appreciated.
November 7, 2015
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From what I’ve read a few First Models are 32-40 but I don’t believe I’ve seen one. Since the cartridge rim dimensions are the same and COAL’s are similar I’m wondering if all First Models used the same cartridge guide and carrier. I think they should but have certainly been wrong before.
Mike
“When cycled the action seems to work well but the carrier snaps up quite forcefully when the bolt moves back flipping the cartridge out of the gun.”
When you say flips the cartridge out of the gun, are you talking about a cartridge that is chambered or one that was in the magazine tube cycled onto the carrier, and then flips out before it can go into the chamber? Just to clarify.
When you cycle a round and the carrier elevates, the rim of the cartridge should not be able to pass between the opening milled in the cartridge guides. The rim of the cartridge only passes through the cartridge guides when the bolt is cycled forward or closed about 3/4 of an inch before the bolt pushes it up through the cartridge guide opening and then into the chamber. Just cant envision the cartridge coming out of the top of the receiver when the carrier is elevated.
The snap you get from the carrier is right when the bolt and lever are cycled, the carrier bears on the carrier spring, it snaps into place when the carrier cams to the spring stop or milled area on the carrier. Does the end of the carrier, when the bolt is opened all the way, stick up higher than the bottom of the chamber opening?
Can you post a pic of the receiver with the bolt open showing the cartridge guides, carrier, and bolt face, maybe there is something that can be seen there.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
TXGunNut said
From what I’ve read a few First Models are 32-40 but I don’t believe I’ve seen one. Since the cartridge rim dimensions are the same and COAL’s are similar I’m wondering if all First Models used the same cartridge guide and carrier. I think they should but have certainly been wrong before.
Mike
Mike,
Where did you read that? Thus far, there have not been any 1st models in 32-40 ever found/verified. Conversely, (3) 1st models have been found in 30 WCF (all in a small serial number range) though.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
It is interesting to learn that a few were .30-30.
the cartridge that flips is the one in on the carrier when the action is being opened. The rim is held by the guides but not firmly. The guides seem to stick out about 1/8″ from the sides of the receiver. If the head of the cartridge is manually tilted up the cartridge comes free. I have some photos of the carrier and the guides and will post them here when I transfer them from my camera to the computer
Clipper47,
Below are some pics (first 3) of first model cartridge guides (SN 1658) in 38-55. Followed by cartridge guides from a 38-55 in the 12K range. I cant see any difference in the cartridge guides other than how the screw fastens them to the receiver (outside vs inside). Have also included pics of how cartridge cycles through guides, dont see any way it can be flipped out of the receiver or flipped too high (unless the sides of the carrier is broken in some way on the side where it is milled to stop when it hits the underside ledge of the cartridge guide). I even tried cycling a empty cartridge through the receiver into the chamber and the empty cartridge does elevate higher and gets caught on the top side of the chamber, but a loaded cartridge does not.
Pics from 12K SN. By the time the cartridge rim reaches the recess in the cartridge guides, the nose of the bullet should be at or begin entry into the chamber.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
1892takedown, Thanks to you I believe the mystery has been solved. When comparing your photos to my gun it is obvious that the rear portion of both guides have been milled away to widen the openings where the rear of the cartridge would sit. I have a later model left side guide also with the slit for the flat spring for comparison and I see that it matches those in your photos and it is the same thickness throughout its length. So the question is why would anyone do this? I have owned the gun for fifty some years and bought it from the Catholic Mission at Fort Albany in remote northern Ontario and who I believe were likely the original owners.
Not sure why someone would do that. I would venture to guess that if you found some early cartridge guides, even though they are designed for a screw on the inside of the receiver, they will likely still work on a first model receiver. Would think whether fastened from the outside or the inside, they would still work. The first model screw should not stick out any further (to the inside of the receiver) than the screw head recess on a period set of cartridge guides.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Early cartridge guides for 30 WCF may work as well if they are designed the same with the spring in the left cartridge guide. Vintage cartridge guides without the spring may also work (38-55, 30WCF, 32WS). Worth a try. The chance of finding a set of first model cartridge guides is slim to none.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
I do have a left cartridge guide which could be made to work by drilling and tapping the hole in the correct spot and I am sure a right one would be not a big problem to locate and rework.l I am wondering if the former owner wanted to adapt the gun to a more powerful longer cartridge such as a .38-72WCF. I bought a 1895 from the same people in .35WCF.
Your right, hadnt noticed till you mentioned, the first model screw hole is set back towards the end of the guide whereas the later one falls closer to the middle. Hadnt thought of that, but worth a try drilling out a later set and see what happens. Learn something new every day.
Still scratching my head regarding why someone would cut the cartridge guides. A longer cartridge wouldnt cycle through the receiver. Was thinking they could have been cut to where it only operated or cycled as a single shot. Who knows.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
You are right that a longer cartridge wouldn’t fit the carrier and since the chamber appears to be .38-55 I guess cutting the guides was not for the purpose of adapting another size. A mystery that likely will not be solved. I have used it as a single shot but simply by sliding the cartridge into the chamber before the carrier flips up. Also I notice that the carrier has been altered as well and is from a later gun. It still is an accurate shooter. I do have a correct carrier which I have installed for originality but does not. make any difference since the problem is with the guides. Interesting what can happen to a gun after 120 odd years.
November 7, 2015
Offline
Bert H. said
Mike,
Where did you read that? Thus far, there have not been any 1st models in 32-40 ever found/verified. Conversely, (3) 1st models have been found in 30 WCF (all in a small serial number range) though.
Bert
Bert-
May be reading it wrong but Madis touches on it on page 399 and 401 and the Red Book mentions First Variation 1894’s in 32-40 on page 88. I’ve only seen 38-55’s but I’ve only seen a few First Variations.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Bert H. said
Mike,
Where did you read that? Thus far, there have not been any 1st models in 32-40 ever found/verified. Conversely, (3) 1st models have been found in 30 WCF (all in a small serial number range) though.
Bert
Bert-
May be reading it wrong but Madis touches on it on page 399 and 401 and the Red Book mentions First Variation 1894’s in 32-40 on page 88. I’ve only seen 38-55’s but I’ve only seen a few First Variations.
Mike
Mike,
You most definitely are reading page 88 incorrectly.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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