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I’ve had a project in mind for a couple years and would like to pursue it. It involves rebarreling a vintage Ross/Lancaster straight-pull bolt action sporter to .405 WCF. The rifle was originally in .370 Express chambering. The original barrel is gone, but everything else is intact. Wonderful engraving, nice wood, etc. It is owned by a friend and he was going to pursue this project but would rather hand it off. About two years ago I had forwarded him the contact information of someone who specialized in Winchester barrels and my friend talked to him. There was a tentative plan where this person would supply the barrel, taper it to the needed contour and fit it to the action. My friend has lost this information I can’t remember who it was. My rough recollection was a well-known outfit.
Ideas?
steve004 said It is owned by a friend and he was going to pursue this project but would rather hand it off.
The man came to his senses.
But if you have the appetite for much potential aggravation, try here: http://www.winchesterbarrels.com/
clarence said
steve004 said It is owned by a friend and he was going to pursue this project but would rather hand it off.
The man came to his senses.
But if you have the appetite for much potential aggravation, try here: http://www.winchesterbarrels.com/
Clarence –
When I searched, “Winchester barrels” this site did come up. Maybe it’s the one. As far as my friend’s motivation to pass the project on, when one reaches a certain age, the thought that you will still be around to see the project completed starts to loom. Even for me, I find myself reluctant to buy very green bananas 
I will add that the purpose of this project is to save, as best it can be saved, a very rare and finely crafted rifle made by Charles Lancaster. The action is nicely engraved (by Lancaster) and it is all there (with original stock and top wood) and in excellent condition – with the exception of the barrel. There are very few of these Ross-Lancasters in the world. This one comes with provenance from the Lancaster ledger. It deserves to be saved. It will never be original, but we even see that with a Winchester now and again
The .405 WCF caliber selection seemed fitting. If I knew someone who could build a .370 Express barrel for it, I would explore that. However, even if that could be done, the rifle of course wouldn’t be original.
We had considered .35 WCF. For a long period of time, the .35 WCF and the .405 WCF were probably equally obsolete. However, when Ruger came up with the No. 1 in .405, “Winchester” chambered their single-shot, and Hornady started making ammunition, the .405 was able to climb out of obsolescence.
Steve, some things are just too good and valuable to NOT restore. The very few Ross sporting rifles I’ve seen were fit and finished to best grade standards, except for the absence of engraving.
Because I know zip about the cartridge for which the rifle was originally chambered, I would have assumed it was a rimless round, like the 280 Ross. But the 35 and 405 WCF and the 303 Enfield are rimmed.
In either case, is there any possibility of a rebore that would save the cost of fabricating and contouring a new barrel?
Edit: a Web search turned up the unverifiable information that the .370 Express was a conversion practiced by Charles Lancaster on the Ross straight pull .303 Enfield rifle. The cartridge was the .303 case necked up to .375.
Since both the .303 Enfield (by extension the 370 Express) and the .405 WCF are both rimmed, extraction/ejection shouldn’t be a huge problem. Query: cartridge OAL compatible with length of Ross bolt throw and magazine length; action feed rail compatibility? Bolt face?
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Zebulon said
Steve, some things are just too good and valuable to NOT restore. The very few Ross sporting rifles I’ve seen were fit and finished to best grade standards, except for the absence of engraving.Because I know zip about the cartridge for which the rifle was originally chambered, I would have assumed it was a rimless round, like the 280 Ross. But the 35 and 405 WCF and the 303 Enfield are rimmed.
In either case, is there any possibility of a rebore that would save the cost of fabricating and contouring a new barrel?
Most Ross Sporters (and all the military rifles) were chambered in .303 British. Starting in 1905 you find some in .35 WCF. They are far from common but I did have one. Starting in 1907 (with the Scotch Deerstalker and the long-range single-shot target rifle) the .280 Ross appears. Even though the .280 Ross is rimless and the .303 is rimmed, you can swap a bolt from a Military MkIII .303 with an M-10 sporter in .280 Ross.
With this rifle, the original barrel is gone. Fitting a different Ross barrel (i.e. a .303) and reboring it is an idea. Actually, one of the original chamberings in this rifle included the .303 British.
Here’s some photos (the barrel is a military barrel – extraneous):
Here is the all original M1901 I have in 6.5 rimless chambering. In fact, my plan would be the do a barrel measurement on this one every inch of the barrel, so the barrel maker to to match the contour. That should insure the barrel will fit the barrel channel and the top wood:
What’s the purpose of that big ugly “flap” on the right side. In fact, what’s the purpose of the handguard?
November 7, 2015
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clarence said
What’s the purpose of that big ugly “flap” on the right side. In fact, what’s the purpose of the handguard?
Clarence-
Good chance the hand guard is part of the military design even though I don’t see a bayonet lug. The spring steel clip appears to hold the hand guard in place. I’m basing my guesses on the last pic in post #7.
Mike
clarence said
What’s the purpose of that big ugly “flap” on the right side. In fact, what’s the purpose of the handguard?
Clarence –
The “flap” is known as the “Harris lever” and is a magazine depressor. Press on it and it pushes the magazine follower down.
As far the handguard, it is true this was a sporting rifle and not a military rifle. I can’t think of a purpose other than cosmetic. Style do change over the centuries.
I just found a closeup of the action of my .256:
You can’t see it well but nearly every Ross rifle has a “donut hole” bolt knob. For these very early ones, there is no hole – it’s solid. Also, the military version of this model was known as the MkI.
steve004 said
The “flap” is known as the “Harris lever” and is a magazine depressor. Press on it and it pushes the magazine follower down.
Maybe there’s some advantage of having that on a military rifle (though Mausers & ’03s got along very well without such a gadget), but retaining it on a sporting rifle was unnecessary.
By the way, why have brl made by a Win maker if you don’t want the Win markings? Douglas offers .405 & I’d trust their work over that of the other outfit.
clarence said
By the way, why have brl made by a Win maker if you don’t want the Win markings? Douglas offers .405 & I’d trust their work over that of the other outfit.https://www.douglasbarrels.net/barrel-specs
Thanks Clarence – all ideas, suggestions and opinions are appreciated.
The barrel contour is the trick. I’d hope Douglass still would do custom work but so much of that level of service has gone down the drain (e.g. RCBS). It may take a small shop to contour the chambered blank and install sights and blue the steel.
Edit: went to the Douglas Website and looked at the Contour tab. They will copy the contour of a barrel you furnish; don’t say what the additional charge will be, if any. They don’t do any blueing and don’t fit sights. If your receiver will Rockwell at least C20, they will fit the barrel to the receiver and headspace it, for $520. Won’t ensure feeding, etc.
Your Ross sporting is, to my eye, very sleek [Harris lever and all] and the epitome of a stalking rifle. If it were mine and I could find a good .303 barrel, that would be my personal choice. The 303 can do everything the 300 Savage can do and a bit more and I love my 99R. I understand our Canadian cousins are still making meat with the 303 to this day. Conversely, at least my own 405 really lets you know it when you touch off a round and from a full-size, non-featherweight 1895. Don’t know what the Ross weighs but I’d think it light of ballast for the 405 WCF, for my taste anyway.
In any event, you’ll have the satisfaction of having saved a great rifle from the scrap pile. I don’t particularly need a 1929 Model 92 25/20 but the cosmetically abused [overpolished blue job, wood sanded below metal, receiver d/td for a scope side mount] had an excellent bore and was mechanically sound. It took new wood, new screws and pins, welded up scope mount holes, stoning the receiver contours and radii back to crisp, rust blueing the barrel, etc. It is inauthentic in several particulars, due to budgetary constraints: the buttplate, lever and forearm cap are not case colored. I only wish I’d photographed it before it was restored. That I got it at a local show for $399 should help your imagination.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
I hate being a “no” type of person. But Douglas barrels, last I knew, had a .412 to .413 groove diameter when the available bullets are a jacketed .411. They won’t bump up and so accuracy is questionable. Years ago I was trying to have a rifle made using a Douglas barrel. Why did they make the groove diameter so big? Supposedly due to SAAMI specs. I have a new project going with a Shilen barrel with a .411 groove diameter, so you may wish to see what they may be able to do for you. Tim
Tim, I read something, either by Weiland or Venturino, about the difference between groove diameters of the 40/72 and its derivative, the 405. Same case so Winchester enlarged the groove diameter of the 405 rifle and ammo so a mentally challenged customer could not fire a 405 cartridge in a black powder 40/72 rifle and part his hair with one or more action components. I think it was Mike and the rifle was a deluxe 1895 .405 that would not group lead for beans. He had to hunt for a bullet mold that would throw the large diameter bullets. (He wanted to shoot his 405 rifle with 40/72 equivalent velocity cast lead.)
It would seem to me Douglas ought to be willing and able to ream and rifle to whatever specs you wanted, provided somebody was willing to mark the barrel with the smaller bullet diameter required. “405 WCF – Use .4XX size bullets only.”
I’d be more inclined to find a mold for the larger bullets, so if I wanted to buy commercial jacketed bullets for dinosaur hunting I could rely on Hornady.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
I’m appreciating all the comments and I’m still mulling over the caliber selection. Bill will probably be interested to hear that I just weighed my rifle – the .256. It came in at 7.2 pounds. I would be using the same barrel length and contour – so a .412 hole running through that barrel (vs. .256) is going to trim a bit of weight – probably get the weight under 7 pounds if I proceed with the .405 WCF choice.
I have researched the original chambering further. It is a .375 Flanged Nitro Express – 2 an 1/2 inches. It is also known as the .370 or the .370/.375. I see Cartridge of the World list a factory load of 40 grains of Cordite pushing a 270 grain bullet producing a MV of 2000 fps and ME of 2400 fp. Contrasting this to the .405 WCF pushing a 300 grain bullet at 2200 fps and an ME of 3220. Interestingly I understand the much rarer load for the .370 used a 320 grain bullet with 40 grains of Cordite. As it happens, the rifle under discussion has the floorplate marked 320 grain bullet and 40 grains Cordite. The .370 and the .405 cartridges are similar. If fact, .405 brass has been commonly used to make .370 cases. This suggests the .405 cartridges would feed just fine. The .370 is nearly a straight wall case.
I would not shoot factory .405 ammo in a .405 rifle weighing less than 7 pounds. However, I rarely shoot factory ammunition in anything. As I am a handloader, I routinely load lighter loads. Were I to barrel this rifle in .405, I would likely load it to black powder .40/72 levels.
The .303 British is a good suggestion. In fact, it was one of the original chamberings that this model Ross was offered in. I load for the .303 British (and .303 Savage as I think of it, and for Bill’s information I load and shoot the .300 Savage as well). I have many Ross rifles in .303 British. Another path I am exploring is finding a .303 Ross rifle barrel and fit it to this rifle. I think it very likely a Ross M1905-R or M1905-E barrel would fit. By the way, the two chamberings in the 1905-R and 1905-E were .303 British and .35 Winchester (Ross rifles chambered in .35 WCF were marked .35 Ross). That would be beyond cool to find a .35 WCF – which will not happen. Nor would a donor rifle scenario happen. Finding a .303 is more likely. And if that worked out, at least my rifle would be, “all Ross.”
Another path I am exploring is finding a .303 Ross rifle barrel and fit it to this rifle. steve004 said
MUCH the best (& cheapest) choice if they’re not too hard to find!
Zeb, I hear you, but think logic flew this coop when Douglas barrels are involved. Tho today they may consider a tighter groove diameter if really pushed. In the “for what its worth” category, I have the mould and sizing die to make .413 diameter lead bullets. They weigh about 290 grains. I do make them and do shoot them a little and they are quite mild compared to full power jacketed bullet loads. The “magic” of a .405 comes with the jacketed bullets exceeding 2100 fps and getting all that energy! Now, don’t get me wrong–original rifles with their .413 groove diameters do shoot well enough. But at 200 yards or more, it is also true they can miss even the ram silhouette with a bullet hitting short, the next long, etc. A 3 inch group at 100 yards is pretty good. I at least think a barrel with a .411 groove would do much better when properly sighted. Ask me in a year and I should have some better and different experiences. Tim
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