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1894 Carbine Project 25-35
September 20, 2013
3:00 pm
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Ah geeeez man, I said I was sorry.
What a thin skinned bunch.
Reminds me of the old broad that threw me
out of the companys diversity class....TWICE.....
Happy shooting,
B

September 20, 2013
7:47 pm
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BJREBUCK said
Ah geeeez man, I said I was sorry.
What a thin skinned bunch.
Reminds me of the old broad that threw me
out of the companys diversity class....TWICE.....
Happy shooting,
B

Well now "my son", it appears that you admittedly are a very slow learner.

Bert

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September 21, 2013
6:21 am
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Winchester listed the 30 WCF, 32 Spc and 38-55 ctg guides as interchangeable, and the 25 cal and 32-40 as interchangeable.

I have found that the 30 WCF guides will work quite well for the 32-40 with no modifications.

You are absolutely correct, Winchester wanted to maximize profits, but they did so in a way that it did not sacrifice quality. Winchester relied heavily on fixtures , gauging , and dedicated machines when manufacturing parts.

If you build a fixture correctly you can make tens if not hundreds of thousands of identical machining operations. Think of a drill press with the sole purpose of drilling the screw hole in the left hand ctg guide. Operator places part in the fixture, drills the hole then places the part in a bin for the next machining operation. His one job for that day was to drill 1200 holes in the left ctg guide.

September 23, 2013
8:55 am
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Winchester listed the 30 WCF, 32 Spc and 38-55 ctg guides as interchangeable, and the 25 cal and 32-40 as interchangeable.

Hey Mike,
Really? Where if I dare ask is this listing? All my old parts catalogues
list all of these with different part numbers except 32ws & 32-40. Are you looking at early parts lists or the current ones?

Ah Bert my boy, glad to see you are over your snit. Yes I am a slow learner I am not easily convinced that women are the same as men, or that all religions are the same or that all societies are equal. But then I digress.
As for the discussion at hand, I do tend to trust my own experiences
more than that of others. My job requirements demand it. I suppose it has influenced my personel opinions. You do seem to be something of an expert regarding serial/production numbers/doms/etc. etc. Thats to be commended it take lots of time and effort to aquire all that info.
And you HAVE taught me something with the multi-caliber barrel sets,
as I was unaware of their existance.
I was not my intent to incur your wrath by demeaning the companys integrity with my comment about defective designs and/or parts being
released, we will have to agree to disagree about that. It could be discussed in another post if anyone is interested and can be objective
about it.
I would be interested in your observations regarding the multi-calibur
barrel sets. Have you any ideas as to why only 100 some odd sets were made. You mention serials in the 300K range, these are rather early in
the production run of this model are they not? Is there any documentation
of these sets being produced later in the production run?
I would really like to see how this was done as firearm design is a hobby of mine. And no I do not consider myself to be an expert.
I am referred to however as "An cussed, stubborn, ornery old coot"
seems to be true eh?
Are you going to be at the Reno show Bert? Perhaps I can sooth your
ruffeled feathers with a libation of your choice?
Good shooting,
B

September 23, 2013
11:43 am
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B
The listing that I quoted is a pre 1900 Winchester factory “in house’ parts list, what are you using?

I like Prikle’s books, better than most, but I dislike how he dimensions parts ie.. 27/64th, 17/32,; carpenters and cabinet makers measure in fractions engineers and machinists measure in decimals ie.. 1.065 (+.0055/-002), makes for much more accurate measuring.

I have measured quite a few ctg guides over the years, and even made a few. I would be more than happy to discuss with specific numbers and radiuses on why you feel the ctg guides are not compatible between calibers.

September 23, 2013
1:22 pm
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Yes, I will be in Reno for the November show.

I response to your question about the number of multi-barrel sets made, the number I quoted is for serial numbers 1 - 353999 only. The original factory warehouse ledger records (at the Cody Firearms Museum) end at serial number 353999. I have seen several additional mutli-barrel sets with serial numbers > 353999, including the one 5-barrel set that Bob Renneberg pictured in his 2nd Edition book. What I do not know, is how many in total were made. My guess is that the number is something close to (300) sets, but that is just a guess on my part.

I very much suspect that the primary reason for the relatively small production number was the fact that multi-barrel sets were special order only, and quite expensive as compared to a standard solid frame rifle. I will look up what the actual cost was in my collection of catalogs later this evening.

Bert

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September 23, 2013
2:07 pm
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Thanks Bert, Appreciated.

Mike,
I'll have a go at it. I don't think dimensions are needed at this point.
And I agree, I don't believe Mr. Pirkle was a machinest, I have found his
info very useful however.

Now then if I visualize the cartridges in question lying on a flat surface
the flat face of the rim makes an angle with the verticle of varying
degree with the small .25 caliber being the largest and .38 smallest.
Disregarding the other stuff going on, If I now place the cartridge on
the elevator the angle of the rim relative to the bore line is quite different
between the two. As the bolt drives the cartridge up the elevator it will engage the cartridge guides. The guides in turn will rotate the cartridge by
it's passage through the guide slots. Now as the angle that the rims are presented to the slots determines how wide the slots need to be and the angle varies with the cartridge caliber. It seems to me the one size
fits all just won't work all that well. And that has been my experience.
When the the guides don't align things well I've ended up (if it feeds at all) with a reciever full of brass shavings and some sad looking test
dummies.
I hope this makes sense.
Thanks for your input Mike,
B

September 23, 2013
6:25 pm
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OK,

Per the April 1900 Winchester Catalogue No. 65;

Standard Sporting Rifle, 32-40 or 38-55 - $19.50
Standard Sporting Rifle, 25-35 or 30 WCF - $23.00

Take Down Sporting Rifle, 32-40 or 38-55 - $30.00
Take Down Sporting Rifle, 25-35 or 30 WCF - $33.00

Extra barrel assembly - $12.00

Total cost for a Model 1894 Take Down Sporting Rifle with an extra barrel assembly - $45.00 (versus just $23.00 for a standard solid frame rifle in 30 WCF). That was a fair amount of $$ back in the year 1900.

Bert

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September 24, 2013
7:16 am
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Bert,
A tidy sum indeed. If we adjust those numbers for the CPI
( I could only find a table going back to 1913, probably the start):
$45 = $1063 !
A fairer comparison I think would be the extra cost of the additional barrel set assuming the smokless barrels:
take down rifle @ $33 = $780
Extra barrel @ $12 = $350
Since we need to start with take a down rifle anyway.
(not sure why the numbers don't add up)
This looks like a profitable product for the company so the extra cost
must be a marketing factor. The numbers look very similar
to a mod. 101 trap gun with an extra barrel set in 1987. I recall straining
the buget to buy it, and it was a well used one.
Thanks Bert, an eye opener,
B

September 24, 2013
7:54 am
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Mike,
I got called away and had to rush through my description. I omitted
that the elevator isn't flat it does have a rim clearance at the rear. The actual feed ramp portion is very short and steep, causing things to happen very quickly. As the bolt cams over the elevator dog the
elevator snaps up pinning the cartridge securely to the bottom of the cartridge guides. The bottom of which are milled to fit the individual cartridges.
As an aside I have two 25-35 actions a the shop I measured the gap between the guides: #1 = 0.380", #2 = 0.382". I have a .30 cal. also:
0.406". My 38-55 dummy cartridges measure 0.402" at the neck a
tight fit in the 30 cal guides but looks like they should squeeze through.
Having difficulty visualizing how one could adjust the guides to feed
such very different cartridges cleanly.
Happy shooting,
B

September 24, 2013
10:46 am
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I’ll refer you back to my second reply on page one of this string. Ref. Ammo Encyclopedia 2nd edition. 🙄
Gene

September 24, 2013
1:51 pm
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gene61,
I think you might be onto a clue here as well, however, if the rim dia. was involved, as to the o.d., the ones machined for the larger rim should
provide adequate clearances.
It seems the jury is still out. Some say it works, some say the opposite.
I think Mike can add some useful thoughts.
It seems odd that there isn't a straight up answer.
I still think there must be more to the story, I find it hard to accept that Winchester would go to all the trouble and expense to make 4 very different guide configurations if one would do it.
Given that Bert has estimated only 300 such guns were made, these are so rare it's not likely any one will ever be allowed to disassemble one
to see whats inside.
Lets see if Mike will help us out.
Good shooting,
B

September 24, 2013
5:15 pm
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B

Sorry, got busy out in the shop.

What exactly are you trying to do? Generally, 38, 32-40, 32 WS and 30 cal will work fine with 30 cal guides. yes I've had issues with 25 cals

I suspect for the 5 barrel sets, Winchester used the 38 cal guides.

V/R

Mike

September 25, 2013
10:58 am
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Thanks Mike,
New you would have the answer.
What I was trying to do was avoid the occasional problem with
the franken guns of having them feed as if they were grinding walnut
shells.
Never-the-less I have come to the following conclusions: lol
1. With exception of the 25-35, all the guides are interchangeable.
2. If you are having problems, it's just you, the problem must be
somewhere else in the action. Plain old bad luck.
3. If you can't find anything, try another set of guides and sell the
ones that don't work to someone you dislike.
4. If the next set doesn't work either, see #3 above and get Mike to
make you a set that will work.
5. Having extra time and money on their hands Winchester made up
a bunch really complicated guides to confound their competition
who were trying to copy stuff and circumvent their patents.
(This had the added benifit of confusing future and current tinkerers)
6. They were REALLY angry the day the made up the 25-35 guides.
Guess that pretty much sums it up.

Great thread Very interesting and informative.
Thanks again Mike for putting things in perspective,
You're The Man.
Happy shooting,
B

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