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steve004 said I see a lot of things in life that upon first glance make no sense to me. I need to remember that doesn’t mean they don’t make sense to someone else. And often, after they explain to me how it made sense to them (e.g. their situation), it makes sense to me.
Steve, are you equating “making sense,” i.e., serving some deliberate purpose, to intelligent, well-considered, decision-making? They aren’t the same–far from it. The behavior of criminals & the mentally ill always “makes sense” to them, but individual opinion is not the criterion of good judgement.
clarence said
steve004 said I see a lot of things in life that upon first glance make no sense to me. I need to remember that doesn’t mean they don’t make sense to someone else. And often, after they explain to me how it made sense to them (e.g. their situation), it makes sense to me.
Steve, are you equating “making sense,” i.e., serving some deliberate purpose, to intelligent, well-considered, decision-making? They aren’t the same–far from it. The behavior of criminals & the mentally ill always “makes sense” to them, but individual opinion is not the criterion of good judgement.
I was referring to some deliberate purpose. Sort of like if I was 6’8” tall with long arms, it would make sense for me to lengthen the pull. When we see a .22 Hornet with a pad on it at a gunshow table, we say to ourselves, “I would never do that!” However, if someone pointed out the (very tall) owner of the rifle to me, I wouldn’t even have to ask him what he was thinking.
This discussion reminds me of the collectable car hobby. Similar to guns, “original survivors” are the pinnacle and the higher condition and less use (miles) the better. And of course collectors groan when they come across something as they note modifications from original. And like rifle collecting, those cars that have been modified makes them affordable to mere mortals. You can also use those modified cars with less worry – have more fun with them. And like guns, while those modifications create a departure from originality, they served a purpose at the time and often were an enhancement (e.g. to performance).
I was thinking about vintage muscle cars when I wrote the above paragraph. I recall 1970 when Plymouth Superbirds sat unsold on dealer’s lots. Very very few people wanted one. Now how the tide has changed. I also think of the coveted 1969 Dodge Charger. Over 300 were destroyed during the 7 seasons of “Dukes of Hazzard.” Seems almost like a crime now. But it made, “sense” back then.
November 7, 2015
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clarence said
TXGunNut said In my way of thinking every modified gun makes the original guns more valuable and sought after.
“More valuable” means higher priced! I can’t see much good in that outcome, if you’re a collector.
That’s a matter of perspective, old wise one! I’m done buying for awhile but I have some high condition original examples I could be persuaded to part with.
Mike
November 7, 2015
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I’ve been giving some thought to the title of this excellent thread. In the eyes of most folks the entire concept of collecting, as we know it, is irrational and bordering on some type of disorder. We pursue obsolete firearms that many times require ammunition that is obsolete but that’s not always an issue as some of us don’t intend to shoot them. Those of us that do attempt to shoot these obsolete firearms often use obsolete tools and loading methods to make ammunition that in most cases does not approach the performance levels of modern ammunition. And in many cases we spend considerable amounts of money on our questionable pursuits.
Bottom line, it doesn’t have to make sense to the average person. I’m proud to be a gun nut! We are studying, enjoying and (hopefully) preserving part of history. We’re having a good time and meeting interesting people with similar interests. We make up a very small percentage of the population and that’s probably a good thing as the original examples in high condition aren’t exactly common.
Collecting modified examples is a bit like reading revisionist history. It just doesn’t work for some of us.
For the record, I’ve only installed one recoil pad on a classic Winchester, a Model 12 Trap Gun. The original had deteriorated to the point it made the gun unusable so I installed a reproduction of the same type because I wanted to shoot this fine shotgun. And over 40 years ago (ouch!) I had a gunsmith install a sling swivel stud on a new 94 Big Bore in .375. Neither gun will ever be a high value collectable so I doubt I offended any of our ultra purist friends.
Mike
TXGunNut said
clarence said
TXGunNut said In my way of thinking every modified gun makes the original guns more valuable and sought after.
“More valuable” means higher priced! I can’t see much good in that outcome, if you’re a collector.
That’s a matter of perspective, old wise one! I’m done buying for awhile but I have some high condition original examples I could be persuaded to part with.
Mike
Any chance for a 1892 SRC in 44-40 Mike?
TXGunNut said
For the record, I’ve only installed one recoil pad on a classic Winchester, a Model 12 Trap Gun. The original had deteriorated to the point it made the gun unusable so I installed a reproduction of the same type because I wanted to shoot this fine shotgun. And over 40 years ago (ouch!) I had a gunsmith install a sling swivel stud on a new 94 Big Bore in .375. Neither gun will ever be a high value collectable so I doubt I offended any of our ultra purist friends.
Nothing wrong with doing that, it’s an enhancement to the gun (which I’ve had done to several I hunted with), or replacing a pre-existing pad, as another reason to dislike them is that they ALWAYS deteriorate, or deform if the gun is stored butt-down. But (I say again) the subject is not mods in general, but the specific one of sawing off the graceful Winchester steel plate, one of the best looking ones ever put on a rifle, & replacing it with a chuck of rubber. Actually, to do that to one of the late Featherweights, with the cheap-ass plastic plate, would constitute no more than a misdemeanor.
I had one pad replaced. It was on a straight-grip Parker 16 V-grade, which I bought ONLY because straight-grips are SO rare, except on the highest grades. Sent it soon afterwards to have a leather covered pad installed by G&H (not cheap!), but though the guns appearance was greatly improved over the hideous rubber pad, I just could not forget or forgive the crime of sawing off the beautiful Parker dog’s-head plate, & sold the gun a few yrs later…my one & only Parker.
November 7, 2015
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oldcrankyyankee said
TXGunNut said
clarence said
TXGunNut said In my way of thinking every modified gun makes the original guns more valuable and sought after.
“More valuable” means higher priced! I can’t see much good in that outcome, if you’re a collector.
That’s a matter of perspective, old wise one! I’m done buying for awhile but I have some high condition original examples I could be persuaded to part with.
Mike
Any chance for a 1892 SRC in 44-40 Mike?
Two, slim and none. 😉 1892’s don’t seem to like me as only a couple have followed me home, both are rifles and neither is a 44WCF.
Mike
Folks, I have enjoyed the hypotheticals and all in this line of discussion and can readily argue either side of the issue. By no means would I care to consign anyone to the pits of hell for modifying an old Winchester that the person owned themselves. I can shudder, though, with changes during the present when the “collectibility” is unquestionable. That includes trying to fake a deluxe and other “restorations” for fooling folks. However, years ago I took a well used M-70 in cal. .270 Win and had it remade in a semi custom rifle just for me. Circassian walnut with great, smoky flowing streaks, air gauged Shilen barrel (old one well eroded in the throat), and a LONG length of pull just for me! I have used it for some of my best hunts and I treasure it. Yet some of you would shudder for its no longer being “a collectible model 70”! Also years and years ago (about 1969) I bought a base Remington model 700 ADL in .243 Win. I soon put a recoil pad on it to lengthen it so I had proper eye relief on the scope. I had it so I instantly was looking through the scope when I brought it up, much as I have with the customized Model 70 above. I used the Remington up and Remington replaced it at cost with a BDL version, which now wears a Kreiger barrel. I have collectible Winchesters, then I have some serious “using” rifles. It happens!! Tim
Online
TonyP said
Bert H. said
So Steve,
How does one ever justify putting a recoil pad on a Model 54, Model 70, or Model 43 in 22 Hornet? Was it really needed to tame that super vicious recoil? Sadly, I have seen all three models in that cartridge with recoil pads!!
Bert
Hi Bert,
What was the LOP on those stocks?
Theoretical justification.
If a 5 foot nothing, short-necked/stockily built hunter of the time needed to shorten his stock by an inch or so, to actually use/hunt with his rifle, then the original butt-plate would no longer have fitted.
In the case of the several Model 43 rifles I have seen with recoil pads, the stocks were not cut… they simply removed the checkered steel plate and screwed the recoil pad to the butt (actually increasing the LOP slightly).
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
However, years ago I took a well used M-70 in cal. .270 Win and had it remade in a semi custom rifle just for me. Circassian walnut with great, smoky flowing streaks, air gauged Shilen barrel (old one well eroded in the throat), and a LONG length of pull just for me! I have used it for some of my best hunts and I treasure it. Yet some of you would shudder for its no longer being “a collectible model 70”! tim tomlinson said
They would be fools; the best custom gunsmiths & stockers used M 70 actions as the basis for their masterpieces. Compare the value, for ex., of a restocked G&H 70 to the same gun as it left the factory.
CLARENCE SAID: But (I say again) the subject is not mods in general, but the specific one of sawing off the graceful Winchester steel plate, one of the best looking ones ever put on a rifle, & replacing it with a chuck of rubber. Actually, to do that to one of the late Featherweights, with the cheap-ass plastic plate, would constitute no more than a misdemeanor.
This is a view of the stock of my very late (circa 1960) production Winchester Model 52C Sporting rifle. As you can see, a prior owner has replaced its “cheap-ass plastic plate” with a modest, un-ventilated, brown Pachmayr pad. I’m very fond of this misdemeanor modification for three reasons: Firstly, because it slightly increases the length of pull to suit my 6’2″ frame; Secondly, because in my indisputable opinion it improves the rifle’s appearance; Thirdly, because it saved me several THOUSAND dollars.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Zebulon said Thirdly, because it saved me several THOUSAND dollars.
No argument with THAT reason!
Zebulon said
While taste is mostly indisputable (with exceptions, e.g. the Winchester Model 40)
Well, I just picked up a nice condition model 40 simply because it was in nice shape, cheap, and I like the oddity nature of it. Guess that puts a nail in my coffin on taste! 🙂
It’s disassembled on my kitchen table right now, awaiting another coat of oil on the stock after I removed all the old peeling varnish.
Jeremy P said
Zebulon said
While taste is mostly indisputable (with exceptions, e.g. the Winchester Model 40)
Well, I just picked up a nice condition model 40 simply because it was in nice shape, cheap, and I like the oddity nature of it. Guess that puts a nail in my coffin on taste! 🙂
It’s disassembled on my kitchen table right now, awaiting another coat of oil on the stock after I removed all the old peeling varnish.
Jeremy,
Have you contacted Greg Dockter? He is surveying the Model 40.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I feel your pain. I was merely transliterating the opinion of a nameless Winchester executive who was quoted as saying, “It [Model 40] looked bad, worked bad, and shot bad. In fact, it was a lemon.”
Winchester offered to exchange any Model 40 shotgun for a new Model 12. Considering Winchester’s normal response to criticism, that was a remarkable thing.
Don’t be ashamed. I too have a penchant for oddballs and my late production Model 07 has odder balls than most. From boyhood to octogenarian, it has always been weirdly fascinating to me, especially after I learned the egregious Homer van Meter used one for his EDC.
I believe the M40 and the 07 share Tommy Johnson’s “balanced recoil” design but correct me if I’m wrong. If so, shooting an M40 might well be a tooth-jarring experience, particularly if the buffer is worn thin or deteriorated from age and oil.
I’ve never fired my 07 but did so with an earlier one, using factory soft points to terminate a nutria at our landlord rancher’s request. I regret to say that skinny butt 1907 kicked well above it’s class.
I’ve only seen one Model 40 in the flesh but, because it was a determined if misguided attempt to break into the automatic shotgun market, I’ll bet Winchester paid very close attention to the build quality of every one shipped. That was certainly true of every 07 I’ve ever handled. Mine is expensive looking and of impeccable construction and finish. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s what drew your eye to the Model 40 on your table.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Bert H. said
Jeremy P said
Zebulon said
While taste is mostly indisputable (with exceptions, e.g. the Winchester Model 40)
Well, I just picked up a nice condition model 40 simply because it was in nice shape, cheap, and I like the oddity nature of it. Guess that puts a nail in my coffin on taste! 🙂
It’s disassembled on my kitchen table right now, awaiting another coat of oil on the stock after I removed all the old peeling varnish.
Jeremy,
Have you contacted Greg Dockter? He is surveying the Model 40.
Bert
I have not, but I will, thank you! JP
Zebulon said
I feel your pain. I was merely transliterating the opinion of a nameless Winchester executive who was quoted as saying, “It [Model 40] looked bad, worked bad, and shot bad. In fact, it was a lemon.”Winchester offered to exchange any Model 40 shotgun for a new Model 12. Considering Winchester’s normal response to criticism, that was a remarkable thing.
Don’t be ashamed. I too have a penchant for oddballs and my late production Model 07 has odder balls than most. From boyhood to octogenarian, it has always been weirdly fascinating to me, especially after I learned the egregious Homer van Meter used one for his EDC.
I believe the M40 and the 07 share Tommy Johnson’s “balanced recoil” design but correct me if I’m wrong. If so, shooting an M40 might well be a tooth-jarring experience, particularly if the buffer is worn thin or deteriorated from age and oil.
I’ve never fired my 07 but did so with an earlier one, using factory soft points to terminate a nutria at our landlord rancher’s request. I regret to say that skinny butt 1907 kicked well above it’s class.
I’ve only seen one Model 40 in the flesh but, because it was a determined if misguided attempt to break into the automatic shotgun market, I’ll bet Winchester paid very close attention to the build quality of every one shipped. That was certainly true of every 07 I’ve ever handled. Mine is expensive looking and of impeccable construction and finish. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s what drew your eye to the Model 40 on your table.
HAHA, no worries here! I do like the oddball stuff and the M40’s story drew me to it. Mine is in pretty nice shape…I won’t be firing it (most likely) and it seems mine had gotten maintained well along the way. The friction sleeve is newer and someone had been swapping the buffers like the A5 instructions show for switching between heavy and light loads.
I’ll get it put back together and throw some pics up somewhere in the shotgun section perhaps…
Jeremy P The friction sleeve is newer and someone had been swapping the buffers like the A5 instructions show for switching between heavy and light loads.
I’ll get it put back together and throw some pics up somewhere in the shotgun section perhaps…
Great idea. Your mentioning the friction sleeve made me realize I don’t have a real grip on how the Model 40 operates and, secondarily, how it differs from its predecessor Model 1911. I’d always assumed the differences in design were merely those forbidden to the 1911 because of the Browning patents, which I assumed expired, enabling the M40 to use them. For example, the operating handle. But I really don’t know.
My grandfather had a 1911, according to my Dad, but Grandpa died and the gun was lost, before I was born. I’ve owned and used Browning Auto-Fives extensively since 1968 and understand their operating principles.
If you don’t mind the time, while youve got the M40 in pieces, could you describe any important differences in action functioning between the Auto-Five and the M40? And any significant changes from the 1911?
I detest ignorance, particularly in myself.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Zebulon said
Jeremy P The friction sleeve is newer and someone had been swapping the buffers like the A5 instructions show for switching between heavy and light loads.
I’ll get it put back together and throw some pics up somewhere in the shotgun section perhaps…
Great idea. Your mentioning the friction sleeve made me realize I don’t have a real grip on how the Model 40 operates and, secondarily, how it differs from its predecessor Model 1911. I’d always assumed the differences in design were merely those forbidden to the 1911 because of the Browning patents, which I assumed expired, enabling the M40 to use them. For example, the operating handle. But I really don’t know.
My grandfather had a 1911, according to my Dad, but Grandpa died and the gun was lost, before I was born. I’ve owned and used Browning Auto-Fives extensively since 1968 and understand their operating principles.
If you don’t mind the time, while youve got the M40 in pieces, could you describe any important differences in action functioning between the Auto-Five and the M40? And any significant changes from the 1911?
I detest ignorance, particularly in myself.
Bill, the mod40 was finally able to use the parts they had to avoid on the 1911, and thus it has a charging handle and recoil system very similar to the A5. This guy, if you can get through a little of his ramblings, does a great job illustrating it so I’ll share the link…should start at the 23 minute mark (don’t have to watch whole thing but it’s neat to see)….
Thanks, Jeremy. I’ll watch it for certain.
Like old Elmer Keith said, “There’s always somethin’ new to learn, ain’t there?”
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
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