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December 9, 2002
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I’m trying to understand this from a neutral view, as this Rifle on RIA site, is clearly being falsely misrepresented. IMO!
Comments are more than welcome to help me understand this!
Anthony
March 14, 2022
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Just a repeat of RIA attempting once again to lure a buyer into the erroneous antique status dates provided by Madis on the model 1894’s. Everyone knows Cody holds the true manufacture dates which are available and documented on the WACA website.
It’s a step forward for RIA to mention WACA dates but, still a sales ploy IMO.
Rick C
November 19, 2006
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I even recall an example where RIA made the same statement, AND they even posted a copy of the museum letter which clearly listed a manufacture date in the early 1900’s! And they still claimed it was legally an antique – referencing the “published” Madis numbers.
In my example, I wonder what potential legal ramifications there might be to the buyer for receiving such a rifle – when the museum letter received with the rifle clear states the rifle was made after 12/31/1898 – AND – that letter was posted as part of the auction and viewable by the buyer when he made his bid?
If it were me, and I was set on having the rifle, I would go with the simple solution. I would have it shipped to an FFL for legal transfer. Saving $50 bucks or whatever is not worth finding oneself in a quagmire.
March 31, 2009
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No Win 32 SPL rifles are antique.
March 14, 2022
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Good eye Chuck. I only read the description. Makes this even more annoying.
Rick C
June 1, 2023
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RIA has been doing this dance on the edge of a razor blade for years. Until and unless the BATFE starts caring about this, RIA certainly never will. For my own protection, I will be treating firearms according to the strictest interpretation of the law as to what qualifies as an antique, and similarly what qualifies as a Curio & Relic. Better safe than sorry, and besides, I would look just terrible in an orange jump suit.
BRP
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
No Win 32 SPL rifles are antique.
Technically, that is not true. There were at least two 32 W.S. Model 1894s that were assembled using Antique serial numbers. Per the ARMAX survey, the lowest serial number in the factory ledgers for a 32 WS Rifle was 10675, and the first Carbine was serial number 22967. I am quite certain that there were at least a handful more 32 WS rifles & carbines assembled using older (antique) serial numbered receiver frames.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
February 17, 2022
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Blue Ridge Parson said
RIA has been doing this dance on the edge of a razor blade for years.
RIA ain’t the only one. I personally have an 86 that is C&R and was run as antique by another well know auction house using Madis info. I logged it in my bound book.
December 21, 2006
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I have called them , and a couple other auction houses several times , to enlighten them , but they are not interested, until I ask if They’ll ship it directly to Me in Canada.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
December 9, 2002
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First off, I want to thank everyone for their comments. We have seen this, as was stated by more than one member here, before.
Henry,
I did get a chuckle out of you’re comment on asking them to send it to you in Canada! LOL!
So here’s a few points that I’m having a hard time understanding. In RIA, description, they claim the refinished special order M-1894, has the number, #14198, stamped in more than one place, as two to be exact. The lower tang, (14198 CF), and on the butt, (14198), under the butt plate. Stamped serial #144561, which makes this a 1902 rifle mfg. in 1902,(WACA), as clearly stated in they’re description. So why then post this rifle as an Antique?
Clearly RIA, is in business to make money, as many of us understand. Profit should never be considered a dirty word, in many people’s eyes, ans especially in the eyes of the ones, who are struggling to do so! IMO! With that said, they don’t take a back seat with their percentages, (Juice) , they charge, and the added fees on top of that! They are considered by many to be one of the top Auction Houses, who clearly receive some of the nicest pieces that many collectors want. Including myself.
Being a refinished rifle, it is what it is. We understand this. By them stating the serial number on the rifle, it clearly shows us the date of manufacturing. By posting the other number, that is stamped in the other two locations, should have no bearing on the mfg. date. So for learning and the educational purpose of my point. We have several Winchester M-1894 Experts, and serious collectors here. What are you’re further opinions on the two matching numbers, one showing a caliber designation, and the other just the number? Tell us why the two different numbers, for the casual, but maybe up and coming Winchester collectors! Are they Assembly numbers? Are they Different parts from two separate rifles? How can we expect this great hobby to grow and expand if we don’t keep educating the masses? Chuck, made the comment a few weeks ago, that we might not last long as a collector hobby! I’m not arguing with him, on that comment, because he may be correct, but it’s not to late to adapt and switch gears, as many here have forgotten more than most of us will ever know and learn! I started this thread as a, “Neutral view”, and as many have noticed I try to ask questions that some assume many already know the answer to. Many people out in the, “Firearms Collecting World”, sometimes view us as an arrogant collector forum! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been told that! IMHO!
Chuck,
I was happy that you posted you’re thoughts , on the .32 SPL, as we can learn a lot by added opinions.
Bert,
With you’re posting the .32 W. S. chart, and information, it tells us a lot, and gives us more to go by.
I recently noticed another smaller auction house with a Winchester rifle and the mfg. date was off by 10 years. Both dates we’re still in the Antique status, as Pre-1898.
I’ve spoken to a couple ATF agents, on this subject, as has a few other members who recently reminded me of this as of late. Many of us understand the ATF rules clearly states the numbers on the receiver is the date of mfg. Even though the agent who you speak with, opinion can vary, as to a person. The holder of the firearm is responsible if some legality should arise! More than a few members here have posted their stance on not taking a chance on anything that might be discretionary, as I am in agreement with. It’s just not worth it!
Anthony
March 31, 2009
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Bert H. said
Chuck said
No Win 32 SPL rifles are antique.
Technically, that is not true. There were at least two 32 W.S. Model 1894s that were assembled using Antique serial numbers. Per the ARMAX survey, the lowest serial number in the factory ledgers for a 32 WS Rifle was 10675, and the first Carbine was serial number 22967. I am quite certain that there were at least a handful more 32 WS rifles & carbines assembled using older (antique) serial numbered receiver frames.
Bert
The serial numbers might be antique but the rifles might not be? I know you can answer this. Is the legal definition of what’s antique the date the action was serial numbered or when it was assembled and sold?
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
Bert H. said
Chuck said
No Win 32 SPL rifles are antique.
Technically, that is not true. There were at least two 32 W.S. Model 1894s that were assembled using Antique serial numbers. Per the ARMAX survey, the lowest serial number in the factory ledgers for a 32 WS Rifle was 10675, and the first Carbine was serial number 22967. I am quite certain that there were at least a handful more 32 WS rifles & carbines assembled using older (antique) serial numbered receiver frames.
Bert
The serial numbers might be antique but the rifles might not be? I know you can answer this. Is the legal definition of what’s antique the date the action was serial numbered or when it was assembled and sold?
It is the date that the serial number was applied to the gun. Barrels and other attaching parts can be bought, sold, and shipped (mailed) without any paperwork of any type. The serialized receiver frame cannot be sold or shipped without the Form 4473 being properly filled out unless it is a verifiable antique. Therefore, any Model 1894 with a serial number < 53942 is “antique” regardless of what barrel is on it.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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Bert H. said
Chuck said
Bert H. said
Chuck said
No Win 32 SPL rifles are antique.
Technically, that is not true. There were at least two 32 W.S. Model 1894s that were assembled using Antique serial numbers. Per the ARMAX survey, the lowest serial number in the factory ledgers for a 32 WS Rifle was 10675, and the first Carbine was serial number 22967. I am quite certain that there were at least a handful more 32 WS rifles & carbines assembled using older (antique) serial numbered receiver frames.
Bert
The serial numbers might be antique but the rifles might not be? I know you can answer this. Is the legal definition of what’s antique the date the action was serial numbered or when it was assembled and sold?
It is the date that the serial number was applied to the gun. Barrels and other attaching parts can be bought, sold, and shipped (mailed) without any paperwork of any type. The serialized receiver frame cannot be sold or shipped without the Form 4473 being properly filled out unless it is a verifiable antique. Therefore, any Model 1894 with a serial number < 53942 is “antique” regardless of what barrel is on it.
Bert
This is interesting. What antique 1894’s share the same action as the 32 Win Spl? Or are all of them the same except the specific caliber parts?
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
Bert H. said
It is the date that the serial number was applied to the gun. Barrels and other attaching parts can be bought, sold, and shipped (mailed) without any paperwork of any type. The serialized receiver frame cannot be sold or shipped without the Form 4473 being properly filled out unless it is a verifiable antique. Therefore, any Model 1894 with a serial number < 53942 is “antique” regardless of what barrel is on it.
Bert
This is interesting. What antique 1894’s share the same action as the 32 Win Spl? Or are all of them the same except the specific caliber parts?
Chuck,
There is no physical difference in the Model 1894 action (receiver frame) based soley on the caliber with the exception of the small number of very early 1st model receiver frames with the 10 o’clock screw (those were nearly all 38-55s). The Model 1894s made in 30 WCF and 32 WS are identical except for the bore diameter of the barrel.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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Bert H. said
Chuck said
Bert H. said
It is the date that the serial number was applied to the gun. Barrels and other attaching parts can be bought, sold, and shipped (mailed) without any paperwork of any type. The serialized receiver frame cannot be sold or shipped without the Form 4473 being properly filled out unless it is a verifiable antique. Therefore, any Model 1894 with a serial number < 53942 is “antique” regardless of what barrel is on it.
Bert
This is interesting. What antique 1894’s share the same action as the 32 Win Spl? Or are all of them the same except the specific caliber parts?
Chuck,
There is no physical difference in the Model 1894 action (receiver frame) based soley on the caliber with the exception of the small number of very early 1st model receiver frames with the 10 o’clock screw (those were nearly all 38-55s). The Model 1894s made in 30 WCF and 32 WS are identical except for the bore diameter of the barrel.
Bert
The only small differences I see are the case length and loaded round length. 1.976″ and 2.55″ for the 30 WCF and 1.977″ and 2.6″ for the 32 SPL. So I doubt that any parts were changed to get the cartridge out of the magazine and into and out of the chamber. The 25-35, 32-40 and 38-55 are just a bit longer.
I have to look at these rifles a little closer in the future. It would be nice to find an antique one.
December 9, 2002
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oldcrankyyankee said
Blue Ridge Parson said
RIA has been doing this dance on the edge of a razor blade for years.
RIA ain’t the only one. I personally have an 86 that is C&R and was run as antique by another well know auction house using Madis info. I logged it in my bound book.
Think about catching a so called deal on an auction site, knowing as a Winchester collector, that date is a modern firearm, (post 1898), but listed as an Antique, (Pre. 1898), and you won the auction, and it’s sent directly to you, as an Antique rifle. The claim of being an Antique by the auction house, is on them! IMO!
Now if for some reason, there’s a problem, and it gets lost or stolen, and recovered, and in the meantime discovered, that it’s not an Antique, there could be some legal issues to go through! IMO! A lot of variables, but I really wouldn’t like to be involved in such circumstances!
Anthony
March 14, 2022
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Tony, I’m on the same page. I personally will not venture outside the WACA DOM dates when it comes to antique with FFL considerations and cross border implications etc. Even when you go to guns.net now, it sends you to the WACA DOM. As far as I’m concerned, the sale is on the seller until it arrives at my door, undamaged. That includes any information the seller provided.
Rick C
September 22, 2011
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The solution to all this is to make antique anything pre WWII. It’s high time antique be updated to be more realistic. Folks, a true antique is now more than 127 years old.
Yes, I do know how an antique firearm came to be defined according to the GCA of 1968. For those who don’t know, I can elaborate, if desired.
The problem with trying to get this revised, and bringing this to the attention of your congressman, is that it’s a double edged sword and if legislation were brought forth to extend it to pre 1940 (or pre 1950, etc), the anti 2A folks would be made aware of the antique firearms provisions and deem that unacceptable, requiring an FFL for all firearms irrespective of date of manufacture.
March 14, 2022
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mrcvs said
The solution to all this is to make antique anything pre WWII. It’s high time antique be updated to be more realistic. Folks, a true antique is now more than 127 years old.
Yes, I do know how an antique firearm came to be defined according to the GCA of 1968. For those who don’t know, I can elaborate, if desired.
The problem with trying to get this revised, and bringing this to the attention of your congressman, is that it’s a double edged sword and if legislation were brought forth to extend it to pre 1940 (or pre 1950, etc), the anti 2A folks would be made aware of the antique firearms provisions and deem that unacceptable, requiring an FFL for all firearms irrespective of date of manufacture.
No argument about that. I think a revision that once a firearm is a 100yrs old, just makes it easy for everyone. The classifications(full auto, etc) and licensing doesn’t have to be changed, but your vintage(currently 1926 and older) classified as antique would certainly be nice.
I remember Bert replying to a thread here one time about other implications, and the chances of something like that changing are very minimal to none.
Rick C
March 6, 2011
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If anything, the antique definition may get worse. All cartridge firing guns may no longer be considered antiques. We had a case here where an ex-felon (unknown to the gun shop owner, no background check required) bought an antique top break .32 and a box of ammunition. Within an hour he shot 2 police officers in a Lake Tahoe casino. Many pre1899 guns shoot just good as modern guns. These antique guns can be bought on the internet or at gun shows right now, and shipped or sold to a prohibited person unknowingly.
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