Miroku Winchesters, the good, the bad, and the okay?|General Discussions & Questions|Forum|Winchester Collector

I don’t have a problem with them at all and you said it best, they have their place. I think the Miroku made Winchesters are very well built and I have a couple, although I do have some Uberti and the like guns too and I think they were well done also.

You will get responses from this group that run the gamut as to their opinions on them, as from a collector’s point of view, they are not collector pieces (yet)… but I think their day will come, it’s just that many of us won’t be around to see it. Much like I supposed the Winchester folks back in the day never thought how the things they were building would be so revered by our group!

EDIT: I forgot to say, if you like/love them, by all means collect the hell out of them and I will support you!

I own a Miroku 1885 Winchester in 45-70. I know that its design differs from John Browning’s original, but I love it.

The fit and finish are excellent and the wood is gorgeous. I shoot my own cast 405 grain flat point reloads and it is a tack driver. It will easily cloverleaf at 50-100 yards with open sights as long as I do my part.

I have said this several times without apparent effect but, for reasons I do not understand, United States Repeating Arms Company, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Browning Arms Company doing business as Winchester Guns, will happily sell you a new Model 1873 carbine or Sporting Rifle chambered in .44 WCF caliber, which is identical in every cosmetic and mechanical respect to an original Third Model 1873 made in New Haven.

These new 1873 guns have neither a sliding tang safety nor a rebounding hammer. I will swear to this on the bones of my Father and the honor of my Mother, before 20 Bishops of the True Church. 

Winchester Guns will NOT sell you a Model 1886, 1892, 1894, or 1895 without both WACA- detested features. 

I am well familiar with the corporate legal mentality, which sees its employer as a tender and vulnerable Thompson’s gazelle surrounded by hungry lions. To read any American firearm manufacturers User’s Manual is to understand Legal Department philosophy better than anything I can say. 

But, for the life of me, why the 1873 and not the rest…. go figure. 

Having said that, I can tell you I own several of the Miroku Winchesters, including a couple of 1886 Models, one of which, a 45/70 ELW is virtually identical to my 1912 1886 .33 WCF except the 33 is a takedown and the 45/70 has both a rebounding hammer and a tang safety. I like to shoot and reload for both. The 33 has an excellent bore but, if it were in the same cosmetic condition as the 45/70,  it would have cost me more than I could afford to pay. 

Side by side, there is ZERO difference in the quality of materials and construction. None. If this distresses someone, get over it. Nobody said you have to buy one. But I also remember the demise of the Browning Superposed and the initial collective horror at Browning’s daring to pollute America with the “inferior” Citori and BSS. Here’s a dose of reality: I own both and there is no difference in quality. 

I am older  than most of you and I remember very clearly all the [urinating] and moaning in the Ninteen Fifties by Winchester lovers who yearned for the return of NEW 1873, 1886, and 1892 rifles — and NOW YOU GOT THEM. Even some very nice 1885 Single Shots, from time to time. But no, some people would complain about being hung with a new rope. 

I don’t know whether Miroku Winchesters are collectible or not and don’t much care. I know Winchester Parkers are. Some other Olin-Kodensha Winchesters are. But what the Miroku Brownings and Winchester rifles and shotguns mainly do for me is expand my shooting and collecting opportunities:  — My 1886 Winchester Sporting Rifle 45-90 set me back $1600 USD and left me enough to buy dies, brass, bullets — and not have to pass up a 99% 4″ pre-83 Smith & Wesson Highway Patrolman somebody had  just consigned at a local shop. It would not have lasted the whole business day under the counter.  

Since we’re on the subject, I’ll bring this up.  I’m not stating facts I’m asking a question. Post WWII Browning made Auto 5 shotguns and superpose BAR in Belgium under FN. did they produce any Winchester guns?  shortly production was moved to Portugal at least for new BAR then everything was made in Japan through Miroku. FN bought USRACO in the early 80’s.  FN started producing most the guns I know about in Japan I think in late 60s early 70s.  Were the only JMB Winchesters produced after 64 until Olin sold the Winchester brand to the union in 81? Made by Winchester under Olin, or did FN make some?   Sorry if this got confusing, as you can tell, I kinda understand the timeline, but I have some gaps.  

Jeremy P said

Cowboy103 said
The stocks have some light scratches so I thought about sanding them lightly and giving them a linseed oil wipe. 
  

Now you’re starting a whole new fire!
  

I just redid a really poorly refinished savage 99E without touching it with sand paper.  Someone did sand it “lightly”.  Then put some sort of finish on it.  I was able to get it off with acetone and get a new oil finish on it.  If you want to steam dents you’ll have to refinish.  If you want to clean up scratches, you can do a lot with an oily rag.  There’s a lot of knowledge on here about wood care and refurbishing that will save you time, money, and headache.  

MidwestCrisis said
Since we’re on the subject, I’ll bring this up.  I’m not stating facts I’m asking a question. Post WWII Browning made Auto 5 shotguns and superpose BAR in Belgium under FN. did they produce any Winchester guns?  shortly production was moved to Portugal at least for new BAR then everything was made in Japan through Miroku. FN bought USRACO in the early 80’s.  FN started producing most the guns I know about in Japan I think in late 60s early 70s.  Were the only JMB Winchesters produced after 64 until Olin sold the Winchester brand to the union in 81? Made by Winchester under Olin, or did FN make some?   Sorry if this got confusing, as you can tell, I kinda understand the timeline, but I have some gaps.  
  

Fabrique Nationale made the Browning Auto-Five before World War One, not Two, and the Superposed before World War Two, in Liege. FN resumed making Browning long guns and some handguns in Liege until the late Nineteen Sixties, when Browning shifted production of its long guns to Miroku in Japan. At some point, not sure of the dates, FN secured a minority interest in Miroku and ultimately bought Browning outright. Eventually, FN began having assembly of the High Power pistol done in Portugal, with Belgian-made parts. The BSS double shotgun was manufactured by Miroku but eventually assembled in South Korea. The Citori O/U, as far as I know, has always been made and assembled entirely in Japan – but I can’t swear to it. 

A parallel development was the sale on 12/31/1980 of the gunmaking assets of the Wichester Western Division of Olin Industries by Oin to United States Repeating Arms Company, a corporation formed by former executives of Olin and others. (The International Brotherhood of Machinists was not part of that consortium as far as I know.)

Olin retained ownership of the Winchester names and marks (for the benefit of its ammunition business) but licensed them to USRAC. USRAC ran short of capital and had to go through arrangements under the Bankruptcy Code more than once. Ultimately, FN bought its assets out of bankruptcy and secured a new license of names and marks from Olin. 

I have left Olin-Kodensha guns out of this narrative because Olin continued its joint venture to make 101 and 23 double shotguns until 1989. USRAC had no part of that. For a time after 1980 Olin’s Winchester Western Division continued to make the 1200 and 1400 series shotguns in New Haven. 

The Winchester Model 70 and Model 94 were always made by Olin in New Haven and then by USRAC in New Haven.  What happened next can be confusing because there have been several entities named USRAC that have taken possession of the Winchester gunmaking assets, with different owners. When FN bought the assets from bankrupt USRAC, FN formed a new subsidiary corporation wholly owned by FN called USRAC to hold those assets. It still does although it does business under the name “Winchester Guns.”

As soon as FN came into control of the Winchester gunmaking assets, it began a process of getting out of New Haven. It shut down production of the Model 94 and eventually moved production of the Model 70 to FN’s plant in North Carolina. It started production of the Model 70 there for a while, then began sourcing its barrels and action there but stocks and final assembly in Portugal.  I believe but am not sure that Model 70 barreled actions are still manufactured in Carolina, all the rest of it is done in Portugal. 

The classic Winchester lever actions made by Miroku are made entirely in Japan, as were their predecessor Browning branded guns. As a matter of interest, neither (American) USRAC nor Winchester-Western Division had any art or part in Browning’s re-introduction, starting in 1986, of Models 1886, 1895, 65, 71, 53, 52 Sporting rifles and Models 12 and 42 shotguns. It was done in spite of them because all the patents had expired. It was a bitter pill to swallow because these new guns were so well received. 

Cowboy103 said

what would one recommend for these type of scratch’s.
  

You could try to blend with danish oil.  If that doesn’t work you could use a darker oil stain.  Remember oil “finishes”aren’t coats, they are applications.  Rub it in well let it soak rub of access and buff.  Then let dry 24 to hours before next application.  I’ve had good luck applying oil stain over the boiled linseed oil coat as well.  Just follow instructions on the oil based stain if you need to use it.  I’ve only done a couple so I’m sure someone more experienced will chime in.  If you can feel the scratches buff them down with steel wool and clean the stock before you start applying anything.  Cleanliness is key.  You can get danish oil, boiled linseed oil, acetone, denatured alcohol, and about any stain at Home Depot.