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November 13, 2008
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Bert H. said
Ian,
Nearly all of the Winchester’s that have a factory installed Lyman No. 21 were blued… only a small number of Model 1886 rifles with a case colored receiver frame are found with a Lyman No. 21 sight. Keep in mind that the Lyman No. 21 sight was introduced just a few years before Winchester ceased case color finishing the Model 1886, and that none of the Take Down Model 1886 rifles were case color finished.
The vast number of Lyman No. 21 receiver sights were installed on the Model 1895/95, and Models 1892 & 1894… which were all blued.
In regards to your question about how to tell, the vast majority of the people who drilled & tapped a Winchester after the fact to mount a Lyman No. 21 (or No. 38) did not apply cold blue to the raw (in the white) threads they tapped in the receiver frame. That stated, the workmanship quality of the holes & threads is almost always the dead giveaway. On a Winchester dilled & tapped hole, the threaded area does not start at the surface of the hole. Instead, the hole is neatly countersunk (vertical countersink), with the threads beginning at the bottom of the countersunk section.
Bert
It is not accurate to say none of the of take down model 1886 rifles were case color finished.
I have studied this model extensively and have an on going survey and records.
There were infact 8 color cased take down rifles between serials 87469-109541
From march 13 , 1894 and June 18, 1896
Jeremy Scott.
WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN
April 15, 2005
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MidwestCrisis said
Since LeverGunner bumped this thread, I thought I’d put this here. These holes definitely do not have a counter sink. From what I read earlier this SN is after 1 million so a factory letter wouldn’t exist. These plug screws seem to be the only ones that have been messed with on this rifle though. Rear tang screw looks good. But the tang obviously isn’t. The extra tang hole as I mentioned really needs a sight or a plug
The extra hole drilled in the upper tang is positively aftermarket work. A close-up view of the two holes in the receiver show that they too are aftermarket work.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
April 15, 2005
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Jeremy Scott. said
Bert H. said
Ian,
Nearly all of the Winchester’s that have a factory installed Lyman No. 21 were blued… only a small number of Model 1886 rifles with a case colored receiver frame are found with a Lyman No. 21 sight. Keep in mind that the Lyman No. 21 sight was introduced just a few years before Winchester ceased case color finishing the Model 1886, and that none of the Take Down Model 1886 rifles were case color finished.
The vast number of Lyman No. 21 receiver sights were installed on the Model 1895/95, and Models 1892 & 1894… which were all blued.
In regards to your question about how to tell, the vast majority of the people who drilled & tapped a Winchester after the fact to mount a Lyman No. 21 (or No. 38) did not apply cold blue to the raw (in the white) threads they tapped in the receiver frame. That stated, the workmanship quality of the holes & threads is almost always the dead giveaway. On a Winchester dilled & tapped hole, the threaded area does not start at the surface of the hole. Instead, the hole is neatly countersunk (vertical countersink), with the threads beginning at the bottom of the countersunk section.
Bert
It is not accurate to say none of the of take down model 1886 rifles were case color finished.
I have studied this model extensively and have an on going survey and records.
There were infact 8 color cased take down rifles between serials 87469-109541
From march 13 , 1894 and June 18, 1896
Yes, I agree that there were a very small number of them that were special ordered with a case color frame, but Winchester did in fact clearly state in their catalogs and other literature that the Take Down Rifles and the Extra Light Weight rifles were blued frames only. Any Model 1886 Take Down rifle found with a case colored receiver frame must letter as such. Otherwise, it should be considered aftermarket refinish.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
August 27, 2014
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MidwestCrisis said
Since LeverGunner bumped this thread, I thought I’d put this here. These holes definitely do not have a counter sink. From what I read earlier this SN is after 1 million so a factory letter wouldn’t exist. These plug screws seem to be the only ones that have been messed with on this rifle though. Rear tang screw looks good. But the tang obviously isn’t. The extra tang hole as I mentioned really needs a sight or a plug
Pretty sure the factory holes were counterbored
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
January 8, 2025
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Tedk said
MidwestCrisis said
Since LeverGunner bumped this thread, I thought I’d put this here. These holes definitely do not have a counter sink. From what I read earlier this SN is after 1 million so a factory letter wouldn’t exist. These plug screws seem to be the only ones that have been messed with on this rifle though. Rear tang screw looks good. But the tang obviously isn’t. The extra tang hole as I mentioned really needs a sight or a plug
Pretty sure the factory holes were counterbored
That had been mentioned earlier. So I included the pictures of my rifle that shows no counter in the bore of the threaded hole. I apologize that wasn’t clear.
August 27, 2014
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MidwestCrisis said
Tedk said
MidwestCrisis said
Since LeverGunner bumped this thread, I thought I’d put this here. These holes definitely do not have a counter sink. From what I read earlier this SN is after 1 million so a factory letter wouldn’t exist. These plug screws seem to be the only ones that have been messed with on this rifle though. Rear tang screw looks good. But the tang obviously isn’t. The extra tang hole as I mentioned really needs a sight or a plug
Pretty sure the factory holes were counterbored
That had been mentioned earlier. So I included the pictures of my rifle that shows no counter in the bore of the threaded hole. I apologize that wasn’t clear.
Should have said that factory ‘plug’ holes were counterbored
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
January 8, 2025
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Tedk said
MidwestCrisis said
Tedk said
MidwestCrisis said
Since LeverGunner bumped this thread, I thought I’d put this here. These holes definitely do not have a counter sink. From what I read earlier this SN is after 1 million so a factory letter wouldn’t exist. These plug screws seem to be the only ones that have been messed with on this rifle though. Rear tang screw looks good. But the tang obviously isn’t. The extra tang hole as I mentioned really needs a sight or a plug
Pretty sure the factory holes were counterbored
That had been mentioned earlier. So I included the pictures of my rifle that shows no counter in the bore of the threaded hole. I apologize that wasn’t clear.
Should have said that factory ‘plug’ holes were counterbored
Burt said it in post 2 of this thread. I didn’t think it needed repeating. I was showing an example of the incorrect. Instead of the very nice rifles you see so much around here.
August 27, 2014
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MidwestCrisis said
Tedk said
MidwestCrisis said
Tedk said
MidwestCrisis said
Since LeverGunner bumped this thread, I thought I’d put this here. These holes definitely do not have a counter sink. From what I read earlier this SN is after 1 million so a factory letter wouldn’t exist. These plug screws seem to be the only ones that have been messed with on this rifle though. Rear tang screw looks good. But the tang obviously isn’t. The extra tang hole as I mentioned really needs a sight or a plug
Pretty sure the factory holes were counterbored
That had been mentioned earlier. So I included the pictures of my rifle that shows no counter in the bore of the threaded hole. I apologize that wasn’t clear.
Should have said that factory ‘plug’ holes were counterbored
Burt said it in post 2 of this thread. I didn’t think it needed repeating. I was showing an example of the incorrect. Instead of the very nice rifles you see so much around here.
I’m not repeating anything, just noting that there is a difference between counterbore and countersunk
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
January 8, 2025
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Tedk said
MidwestCrisis said
Tedk said
MidwestCrisis said
Tedk said
MidwestCrisis said
Since LeverGunner bumped this thread, I thought I’d put this here. These holes definitely do not have a counter sink. From what I read earlier this SN is after 1 million so a factory letter wouldn’t exist. These plug screws seem to be the only ones that have been messed with on this rifle though. Rear tang screw looks good. But the tang obviously isn’t. The extra tang hole as I mentioned really needs a sight or a plug
Pretty sure the factory holes were counterbored
That had been mentioned earlier. So I included the pictures of my rifle that shows no counter in the bore of the threaded hole. I apologize that wasn’t clear.
Should have said that factory ‘plug’ holes were counterbored
Burt said it in post 2 of this thread. I didn’t think it needed repeating. I was showing an example of the incorrect. Instead of the very nice rifles you see so much around here.
I’m not repeating anything, just noting that there is a difference between counterbore and countersunk
Forgive me. I am not a machinist. I’m a mechanic by trade. I always wanted to be a gunsmith. Guessing from my knowledge of woodworking I’d say I misspoke because a “counter sink” would be beveled and “counter bore” would be a larger hole cut into the bore of the pilot hole?
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