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Chuck said
Or choose not to.
Same one I used for years – until I found out about the polishing room records.
I certainly am not a die hard fan of Gunbroker. I just tried to place a bid on this gun and They say being being from another country They can’t accept My bid, jeez everybody else does, ock Island Auctions, Guns International , Collectors Firearms etc., etc. I do have an F.F.L. in Washington state for the non antiques I buy. Gun broker is certainly not doing Their sellers a great service here I’d say.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Henry Mero said
I certainly am not a die hard fan of Gunbroker. I just tried to place a bid on this gun and They say being being from another country They can’t accept My bid, jeez everybody else does, ock Island Auctions, Guns International , Collectors Firearms etc., etc. I do have an F.F.L. in Washington state for the non antiques I buy. Gun broker is certainly not doing Their sellers a great service here I’d say.
Henry – this is pay-back for Canada not letting me drive thru their country this winter and get out of Alaska. I should be in southern Arizona or Texas right now working on my tan instead of sitting here plowing snow and counting the days until we start gaining daylight – 3 days to go!
I hear Ya’ Burt, Your guys won’t let Us Canucks drive thru the U.S.either , to get to Yuma or Tampa. I’ve heard some horror stories of those who’ve got caught trying. Although I understand one can fly
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Burt Humphrey said
Same one I used for years – until I found out about the polishing room records.
Burt, my comment was about the dealers. Many choose not to use the correct data and that is also a reason these guns don’t ever have a letter. Bert can remember the details but the polishing room records were known about long before anyone made them public. David Kennedy got a lot of flack for telling the truth.
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Chuck said
Burt, my comment was about the dealers. Many choose not to use the correct data and that is also a reason these guns don’t ever have a letter. Bert can remember the details but the polishing room records were known about long before anyone made them public. David Kennedy got a lot of flack for telling the truth.
Several different authors (Ned Schwing, Robert Rule, and Herbert Houze) were aware of, and used the Polishing Room records in their respective reference books when the records were still in New Haven (pre 1976). Ned Schwing extensively used the PR records in his books on the Slide-action .22 rifles, and the Model 42 Shotgun. Yes, David did get a lot of flack for exposing the fact that there were original factory records that directly contradicted the Madis books. In fact, that flack ultimately led to him leaving the Curator position at the CFM at the “request” of the Buffalo Bill Historical Center Board Of Directors.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
In fact, that flack ultimately led to him leaving the Curator position at the CFM at the “request” of the Buffalo Bill Historical Center Board Of Directors.
Bert
I always thought this was not right. Unless there are other issues that I don’t know about? The truth is the truth.
As a newer collector I’m not following the rationale of someone getting fired for uncovering better, more accurate info. Doesn’t say much for the employer???? Not to hijack the thread, but can someone educate me/us to what the big controversy is with disputing the Madis or pre PR information? Thanks.
foxfire said
As a newer collector I’m not following the rationale of someone getting fired for uncovering better, more accurate info. Doesn’t say much for the employer???? Not to hijack the thread, but can someone educate me/us to what the big controversy is with disputing the Madis or pre PR information? Thanks.
David was not fired per se. Instead, he was strongly “encouraged” to seek new employment. The BBHC BOD chose this action because of threats from certain donors to cease their monetary support (donations). The BBHC BOD regrettably chose the $$$$ over employee loyalty. They admitted that the information that Dave was making public knowledge was indeed accurate, but they still chose to appease the donor(s) who were pressuring them to walk Dave out the door.
In regards to the “why” controversy, it has to do with a small number of Madis’ old friends having a deep rooted desire to believe that his published information could not possibly have been in error and that it was/is the absolute gospel, and that it was/is absolute blasphemy for anyone to challenge or contradict it. It also has to do with a perceived loss of $$$ value to their collections, as some of their Model 1892 and Model 1894 guns are now proven “modern” firearms versus antique . Like David, I have been repeatedly verbally attacked over the past 20-years for my efforts to educate Winchester collectors about the many statistical errors in Madis’ published works. Unlike David, I cannot nor will I be silenced.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thank you for clarifying Bert. That was very helpful for me to not only hear the facts, but also understand the unfortunate politics of Winchester collecting.
The one bad thing for me about the polishing room records is now I know there were thousands of antique 1897’s made instead of 2594. I had stopped looking for one but now I need one. These 3 models in question have the biggest errors in the Madis data. Small ones exist throughout. Small errors occur in almost all research.
I will also say that some believe that Madis probably knew about the polishing room records???
Chuck said
The one bad thing for me about the polishing room records is now I know there were thousands of antique 1897’s made instead of 2594. I had stopped looking for one but now I need one. These 3 models in question have the biggest errors in the Madis data. Small ones exist throughout. Small errors occur in almost all research.I will also say that some believe that Madis probably knew about the polishing room records???
Yes, this is one instance where the PR records are of great benefit to collectors. Per Madis’ DOM book, serial number 34203 was the last “antique” Model 1897, which would mean that just (63) total Model 1897 shotguns were/are antique. The actual verified last antique serial number is 63867, which means that there are just over 29,700 bona fide (legal) antique Model 1897 shotguns out there to be collected.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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I think it’s unfortunate that Kennedy was vilified for publicizing what a few have apparently known for years. Seems like a good man. Personally I place little additional value on “antique” firearms but the toes he stepped on belonged to influential people who obviously did. I’m somewhat talented at stepping on the wrong toes so I understand the situation. I can attribute at least a few employment changes to this talent, including my most recent.
Mike
TXGunNut said
I think it’s unfortunate that Kennedy was vilified for publicizing what a few have apparently known for years. Seems like a good man. Personally I place little additional value on “antique” firearms but the toes he stepped on belonged to influential people who obviously did. I’m somewhat talented at stepping on the wrong toes so I understand the situation. I can attribute at least a few employment changes to this talent, including my most recent.Mike
That’s funny Mike, maybe not lol. I got a good chuckle.
But in all seriousness it’s a shame he got so much grief, but that was alway’s the way then for a whistle blower, especially when it involves money.
RickC
Well, it went for $9075. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/886943022.
Do you think the price was about right?, Hi? Low?
Just like to know what others think. (I did not bid on it), just curious what you think about the selling price.
Al
tionesta1 said
Well, it went for $9075. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/886943022.Do you think the price was about right?, Hi? Low?
Just like to know what others think. (I did not bid on it), just curious what you think about the selling price.
Al
Al it seems high to me. Maybe a different caliber might change my mind.
RickC
I think it was spot on the money for the rarity and condition. I talked to the folks at Ironmen about it Not being a member of Gunbroker at the time I made them an offer ‘ They declined citing they didn’t want to jepardize their standing with Gunbroker, very commendable, I like the gun but at $9000.00 and not being antique it would have cost Me about $16,000.00 Canadian , alittle to much. Anyway some one got a nice ’94
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Seems a bit high to me, but Gunbroker prices tend to push full retail, and then some.
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